Red Mile discussion #saferedmile

[johnnyrocket03]

I am on the edge of my seat awaiting each and every one of Taxbuster's posts. You can just feel the anger and frustration getting to a point where a post of apocolyptic proportions becomes possible.

This thread is awesome.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by jammies

*** Expecting people to act civil when they are drunk is not a ridiculous expectation, either - I was drunk as **** Tuesday night and I managed to walk down the Red Mile without accosting or fighting anyone. It's a cop-out.

No kidding. I'm drunk a lot during Flames events, really drunk, and I've never been in a fight or harassed anyone, or shouted for women to show me their tits. Maybe the trick is to get so drunk that all you want to do is gush about how amazing the Flames are and what a magical year it's been, because that seems to be what happens to me.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by rubecube

So you think groping and harassment that isn't consensual is cool?

I'm not sure how you got to that conclusion, but branding the vast majority of whom who do not do this as rapists or misogynists is wrong. Quit trying to label.

[littlereddevil]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Every man who loves women SHOULD care.

Bingo.

Unless you want all females to end up like Catherine MacKinnon

[Frequitude]

The true spontaneous spirit of the Red Mile that brought this about and almost made it "ok" was gone by the end of the SJ series. Ever since its mostly forced and full of too many ######bags.

Sorry early 20 year olds. You missed it. Just like I missed being of drinking age when we won the cup. Thems the breaks.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Dagger

I'm not sure how you got to that conclusion, but branding the vast majority of whom who do not do this as rapists or misogynists is wrong. Quit trying to label.

My bad then. Your post read a little awkwardly. It said "anyone who isn't opposed to this" and by "this" I thought you meant those not opposed to telling women to expose themselves, or randomly groping them because that's what I was talking about being opposed to.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by johnnyrocket03

I am on the edge of my seat awaiting each and every one of Taxbuster's posts. You can just feel the anger and frustration getting to a point where a post of apocolyptic proportions becomes possible.

This thread is awesome.

No anger or frustration here. Just amazement at the incredible rationalizations of bad behaviour.

And its "apocalyptic".

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by sempuki

Same thing if I heard a woman shouting "all men are #######s" -- ignore them. You're playing semantic games to avoid the reality that you might be a part of the problem.

If we lived in a world where white people existed in this country largely due to slavery, and where white people for hundreds of years were segregated and denied equal opportunity; or we lived in a world statistically and defacto run by women, where until recently men couldn't vote and were largely considered property, I would probably feel different.

Edit: and women were statistically bigger and more aggressive than men.

With all due respect: pull your head out of your ### before you do too much damage.

All way too OT and that is my fault but to say that I could be part of the problem is complete BS, you have no idea who I am. I know how to act in public (and inside my own home) and to imply that I would harass women is total horse manure.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by rubecube

My bad then. Your post read a little awkwardly. It said "anyone who isn't opposed to this" and by "this" I thought you meant those not opposed to telling women to expose themselves, or randomly groping them because that's what I was talking about being opposed to.

Fair enough, it was on the ambiguous side.

[Coach]

I'm wary to post in here. These topics are always so hot button. So many absolutes going on. It's not 100% of any group of people.

- Chanting at a girl to show her tits (or anyone to show any part of their body, gender being irrelevant -- yes, friends and I have had pissed drunk women and men screaming to "show us your dick") is not ok. I feel like this is a pretty simple concept to understand. Men can generally laugh that type of thing off and keep moving without a thought, and I don't want to resume to know a womens thought process, but it seems to stem from a fear that if they don't, the crowd will get more aggressive and eventually physical. Obviously, in terrible circumstances, this has been the case before and it breeds fear for future incidents. But is it fair to paint all men or all male Flames fans as potential assault risks because of this? Maybe so for their own safety and piece of mind. This is really the basic question. Obviously us stand up men don't want to seen as a sexual deviant just by association, but we are. Just like not all women going down there want to be seen as an object to cheer for just by association, but they are. Would it be nice to change? Absolutely. You're going to have to find a way re-wire (or keep out of public) a lot of people though.

- Cheering when a girl, of her own free will, decides to flash a crowd is just a natural response. The crowd chanting for more afterwards is also a natural response. Don't flash your boobs if you don't want people to see them or ask for more. Everyone has cameras. There are greasy basterds who will take your picture and put it somewhere for other people to see. This is not even remotely ok, but it is a reality. If you don't accept that reality and then show your boobs and are surprised it pops up on some website, it's not your fault but it is a predictable consequence of what you're doing. Be smart. Find a respectful guy that you like and show them your goods in private.

- Guys, if you are screaming/chanting at unsuspecting and nonparticipating women, you are scum. If you want to see their boobs, you could try talking to them and enjoying the fun atmosphere with them. Maybe you'll get lucky. If you aren't comfortable with this, go find a class on making friends and socializing yourself. Or porn.

- Dads, your daughters are not all perfect pictures of class, respectfulness and purity. We've all met women who are on the less than savory end of the spectrum. There are girls who are doing this out of their own free will and they can if they want. Newsflash** they have parents and fathers. Your little girl might get off by showing her tits to crowds. Of course you're wanting to be protective as a parent, but let's not be naive here.

Unfortunately, there are situations that are different for men and women, and it's really awful that a good amount of women may not feel safe in that scenario. It's supposed to be a fun way to celebrate a common cause, but as usually some idiots ruin things. And the inclusion of alcohol tends to increase the amount of idiots.

I do think that what is happening here is the most appropriate way to deal with it. Make girls and guys alike aware of it. Make men understand how the chanting makes the girls feel and that it's not the "compliment" they may think it is, and in fact, is very degrading and potentially scary to most. Girls, if you want to hit the RedMile, be smart about it. We'd like to change it, and there are people who will stand up for you, but don't count on them being around. Bring a guy you trust, or travel in a pack of women which includes that bitchy friend who scares off all the guys (you all have at least one). It is indeed sad that you have to think that way and take those precautions, but if you don't you're opening yourself up to it.****

**** This is not blaming women!!! This is acknowledgment of a reality. If you don't protect yourself against reality, you could become a victim of reality.

[GGG]

To me the problem is the random harassment of that guy in the first picture likely going up to every women on the red mile asking to see breasts. That is harassment.

The chanting crowd not so much. In 04 the chanting crowd only occurred when a women got on a car or someone's shoulders. At that point in time it's a performance with both the crowd and the performer getting something out of it.

I definitely saw groping on the red mile last time and harassment and that should stop but the target isn't the chanting crowd egging on a willing participant. Its the random harrassment of unwilling participants on the street that needs to stop.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by jammies

*CHL we're not in court, there are shades of meaning to the word "harassment" and the term "sexual harassment". The English language is not subject to your pettifoggery and nitpickery. Nobody is going to be citing post #743 in this thread in court.

And I think blurring those shades of meaning doesn't help. Let's be honest, level headed and talk about what we're talking about. Rhetoric, bluster, hyperbole, and casting issues in terms that weren't meant for them is the sign of someone who isn't able to make their case honestly. And this is a really, really easy case to make.

The only reason to want to throw around fire and brimstone is if you're just doing it for the sake of spectacle and that's not helpful.

[johnnyrocket03]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

No anger or frustration here. Just amazement at the incredible rationalizations of bad behaviour.

And its "apocalyptic".

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by heep223

Yep.

What's your point here.

My point is that contributing to peer pressure by telling them they are doing something "cool" if they expose themselves without having to be asked isn't that much different than asking them to do it.

If the issue is avoiding the situation to begin with, then women who do it because they think it's cool and not because men are asking, are also contributing to the negative atmosphere. They also have a responsibility to not act in a way to make other women uncomfortable.

[Minnie]

Fun thread.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Minnie

Fun thread.

I always enjoy threads like these.

[sempuki]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

All way too OT and that is my fault but to say that I could be part of the problem is complete BS, you have no idea who I am. I know how to act in public (and inside my own home) and to imply that I would harass women is total horse manure.

Then why the semantic parlor tricks? What purpose does it have? Read over the internet it just sounds tone deaf.

[Tacopuck]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I'm wary to post in here. These topics are always so hot button. So many absolutes going on. It's not 100% of any group of people.

- Chanting at a girl to show her tits (or anyone to show any part of their body, gender being irrelevant -- yes, friends and I have had pissed drunk women and men screaming to "show us your dick") is not ok. I feel like this is a pretty simple concept to understand. Men can generally laugh that type of thing off and keep moving without a thought, and I don't want to resume to know a womens thought process, but it seems to stem from a fear that if they don't, the crowd will get more aggressive and eventually physical. Obviously, in terrible circumstances, this has been the case before and it breeds fear for future incidents. But is it fair to paint all men or all male Flames fans as potential assault risks because of this? Maybe so for their own safety and piece of mind. This is really the basic question. Obviously us stand up men don't want to seen as a sexual deviant just by association, but we are. Just like not all women going down there want to be seen as an object to cheer for just by association, but they are. Would it be nice to change? Absolutely. You're going to have to find a way re-wire (or keep out of public) a lot of people though.

- Cheering when a girl, of her own free will, decides to flash a crowd is just a natural response. The crowd chanting for more afterwards is also a natural response. Don't flash your boobs if you don't want people to see them or ask for more. Everyone has cameras. There are greasy basterds who will take your picture and put it somewhere for other people to see. This is not even remotely ok, but it is a reality. If you don't accept that reality and then show your boobs and are surprised it pops up on some website, it's not your fault but it is a predictable consequence of what you're doing. Be smart. Find a respectful guy that you like and show them your goods in private.

- Guys, if you are screaming/chanting at unsuspecting and nonparticipating women, you are scum. If you want to see their boobs, you could try talking to them and enjoying the fun atmosphere with them. Maybe you'll get lucky. If you aren't comfortable with this, go find a class on making friends and socializing yourself. Or porn.

- Dads, your daughters are not all perfect pictures of class, respectfulness and purity. We've all met women who are on the less than savory end of the spectrum. There are girls who are doing this out of their own free will and they can if they want. Newsflash** they have parents and fathers. Your little girl might get off by showing her tits to crowds. Of course you're wanting to be protective as a parent, but let's not be naive here.

Unfortunately, there are situations that are different for men and women, and it's really awful that a good amount of women may not feel safe in that scenario. It's supposed to be a fun way to celebrate a common cause, but as usually some idiots ruin things. And the inclusion of alcohol tends to increase the amount of idiots.

I do think that what is happening here is the most appropriate way to deal with it. Make girls and guys alike aware of it. Make men understand how the chanting makes the girls feel and that it's not the "compliment" they may think it is, and in fact, is very degrading and potentially scary to most. Girls, if you want to hit the RedMile, be smart about it. We'd like to change it, and there are people who will stand up for you, but don't count on them being around. Bring a guy you trust, or travel in a pack of women which includes that bitchy friend who scares off all the guys (you all have at least one). It is indeed sad that you have to think that way and take those precautions, but if you don't you're opening yourself up to it.****

**** This is not blaming women!!! This is acknowledgment of a reality. If you don't protect yourself against reality, you could become a victim of reality.

Thank you for having a well reasoned and balanced opinion. Issue is not as black and white as the hyperbolic opinions out there (both sides).

[polak]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

@polak, here's a word of advice: quit while you're ahead (you're not, but you can choose to believe you are).

You appear to be somewhat misguided, apparently living in the belief that it is your right to harass women, hit them up for sex at your will and that they are your plaything. Sound about right? Because that's what your posts seem to add up to.

Hahahahaha what?

Where did i say I'm okay with harassing girls? Ive been saying the exact opposite. Ive been in a relationship nearly 6 out of the 7 years since I turned 18 so clearly I don't treat women the way you seem to think I do.

All I did was jokingly post a better way to hit on girls besides chanting like a moron. What I posted also relied on the woman welcoming your approach. Guess what, some people just want to have fun. Doesn't mean you're a bad person or objectifying women or that you're harassing them.

You guys seriously need to calm down with the accusations and jumping to conclusions.

As for the bar district thing, 17th during a Flames playoff game is as close as you're going to get. The vast vast vast majority of people are there for the same reason. Drink and watch the game in hopes that a party erupts if the Flames win. It's not a place to take your kids if you don't want them to see a bunch of drunk people. The whole city isnt going to stop drinking cause Mr. Pastor wants to take his 12 year old to the party as well.

I wasn't old enough to go to the red mile in 04, I survived. They can too. Its a massive party and not a family oriented phenomenon.

[Hockeyguy15]

I've seen more boobs in this thread than the Red Mile.

A+ thread, would read again.