Red Mile discussion #saferedmile

[polak]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

So far your defenses have been:

A) doesn't happen
B) If it does is the girls fault
C) There's other bad things that happen

And now C) Well why don't we ban alcohol


I'll stay away from insulting, but your positions are both ridiculous and childish

a) I said it HASN'T been remotely an issue so far.
b) I said it if a girl gets on a car looking for attention from a bunch of drunk guys, yeah, 99% of the time they will chant for flashing.
c) What? I didn't say that. I said that it's no more of an issue at the Red Mile than any other large gathering of drunk people and this article is vilifying the Red Mile like it's some sort of major gathering of rapists.

I'm not arguing with anyone but the pointlessness of the article.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by skudr248

[skudr248]

Hahah touche

[Zarley]

These articles seem alarmist in nature. I don't recall any concerns about pressure or harassment being raised back in 2004. It seemed to be all in good fun.

Obviously any sleazeball pressuring women against their wishes should be ashamed of himself, but I haven't seen anything of the sort on 17th.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

First of all i have not used the term rape, but i will say that I can see groping as falling under sexual assault.

I don't view the creation of an enviroment that is only inclusive to half of the popluace as a small matter. The public should be able to attend these types of gatherings, hell go anywhere, without fear of safety.

I agree. But when you start using terms that do not apply - for example, if someone were to refer to someone yelling "take off your shirt" to a girl on the Red Mile as "sexual assault", that would do a couple of things.

1. Diminish actual, honest to goodness sexual assault (which I agree with you on the groping thing);
2. Paint a guy who said a dumb thing, probably without thinking, as the equivalent of a sex offender, which isn't proportionate;
3. Create a whole bunch of incendiary argument between outrage hobbyists (who will always take the most extreme position) and misogyny apologists like MRA's that shout down the vast majority of reasonable human beings who all basically agree that you shouldn't shout things like that.

The better response is to point out clearly that the behaviour is wrong, explain why, and see if the person agrees that they should not have done that and apologizes for doing so. The hope is that they don't do it in future.

[Mattman]

Probably the Canuck fans who torched their city, who bought cheap Flames gear as an excuse to party.

Real Flames fans care about the hockey game not tits.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I agree. But when you start using terms that do not apply - for example, if someone were to refer to someone yelling "take off your shirt" to a girl on the Red Mile as "sexual assault", that would do a couple of things.

1. Diminish actual, honest to goodness sexual assault (which I agree with you on the groping thing);
2. Paint a guy who said a dumb thing, probably without thinking, as the equivalent of a sex offender, which isn't proportionate;
3. Create a whole bunch of incendiary argument between outrage hobbyists (who will always take the most extreme position) and misogyny apologists like MRA's that shout down the vast majority of reasonable human beings who all basically agree that you shouldn't shout things like that.

The better response is to point out clearly that the behaviour is wrong, explain why, and see if the person agrees that they should not have done that and apologizes for doing so. The hope is that they don't do it in future.

And what is your response/course of action when he tells you to "Go #### yourself you ######. Don't you like tits?"

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

In 2004 I had this manager that I could not stand. A real sleaze ball. Every morning during that run would have a gathering of some of his cronies in his office to look at the site that had girls flashing their boobs from the red mile.

He loved that site. It became their ritual. Until he saw two of his daughters on it.

^^ This.

I'm going to bet that many of you don't have grown daughters. Or ones that are "almost" there...because if you did, and you were anything but protective of them and appalled at the kind of behaviour a bunch of drunk men - don't blame the girls - are trying to incite, you're not much of a dad IMNSHO.

Sexual provocation of young women is endemic in our environment. That doesn't make it worthwhile, good or anything else. The fact that "sex sells" or that it's prevalent in our society is no argument in favour of attempting to force young women to disrobe in public, whether they are exhibitionistic or not.

How would you feel if it were your daughter subjected to a bunch of leering, drunk men? That is a question to start with.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

And what is your response/course of action when he tells you to "Go #### yourself you ######. Don't you like tits?"

I guess tell him he's being an a-hole - there's not much you can do otherwise. There are going to be a-holes in the world, and all you can do is point out their poor behaviour and hope that it becomes less prevalent over time.

Hell, what do you do if you tell someone not to use the word "fag*ot" and their response is "Go #### yourself you ######. Why, are you a fag*ot? Go back to your boyfriend".

Suppose you heard someone calling a black player "Ni**er" in the bar while watching the game, and ask them to stop, and they say, "Go #### yourself you ######. What are you, a Ni**er lover?"

What can you do?

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by polak

Yes. Does anyone disagree with this?

Jesus. Like I said, stupid article making big deal out something everyone is aware of.

I think the point being to encourage people to apply peer pressure toward those who are not acting appropriately.

If you read the articles and twitter stuff, this discussion germinated from incidents that have occurred in the past couple weeks - one being the dude with the words on chest getting egged on by fellow dudes while the woman walked away feeling uncomfortable and harassed.

Sam Fodor ‏@SamanthaFodor19h19 hours ago
@CalgaryPolice @elizaboothy @nenshi Is this acceptable? #saferedmile All I know -I left down an alley, he got high 5s

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I guess tell him he's being an a-hole - there's not much you can do otherwise. There are going to be a-holes in the world, and all you can do is point out their poor behaviour and hope that it becomes less prevalent over time.

Hell, what do you do if you tell someone not to use the word "fag*ot" and their response is "Go #### yourself you ######. Why, are you a fag*ot? Go back to your boyfriend".

What can you do?

23 yr old me would have jumped on him and kicked his face in. 23 yr old me also spent a night in an eastern block jail.

43 yr old me struggles on the next step.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

23 yr old me would have jumped on him and kicked his face in. 23 yr old me also spent a night in an eastern block jail.

43 yr old me struggles on the next step.

Yeah, I'm tempted to smack people like that too, but what's that going to accomplish. It's way worse in a situation like Red Mile where it doesn't take much to start a large-scale brawl and suddenly people are in the hospital.

[IgiTang]

Lol to everyone jumping on the anti-harrassment bus..

Bottom line is the girls who participate are as equally guilty as anyone else. They chose the lift their shirt. Assault is a different story and if anyone, man or woman touched another who was not invited to do so, is assaulting another person. That stuff isn't cool.

Bottom line, people chanting does not cause people to do things. People making the choice to do something encourages others to follow suit however.

Girls that dont want to participate, educate the girls who are and Inform them on the cause and effect.

[Joe Nieuwendyk]

Originally Posted by polak

Yes. Does anyone disagree with this?

Jesus. Like I said, stupid article making big deal out something everyone is aware of.

The irony is that the article was written for people like YOU who were utterly unaware that there was a problem at all

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by polak

a) I said it HASN'T been remotely an issue so far.
b) I said it if a girl gets on a car looking for attention from a bunch of drunk guys, yeah, 99% of the time they will chant for flashing.
c) What? I didn't say that. I said that it's no more of an issue at the Red Mile than any other large gathering of drunk people and this article is vilifying the Red Mile like it's some sort of major gathering of rapists.

I'm not arguing with anyone but the pointlessness of the article.

A) you specifically said it hasn't happened. As you can see by the article, it HAS become an issue
B) the article specifically says women that choose to should have that right. You're confused
C) you specifically said prohibition in your ridiculous hyperbole

Article: Women were being harassed last time and it's happening again.

Polak: deal with it. Your article is pointless

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Lol to everyone jumping on the anti-harrassment bus..

Bottom line is the girls who participate are as equally guilty as anyone else. They chose the lift their shirt. Assault is a different story and if anyone, man or woman touched another who was not invited to do so, is assaulting another person. That stuff isn't cool.

Bottom line, people chanting does not cause people to do things. People making the choice to do something encourages others to follow suit however.

Girls that dont want to participate, educate the girls who are and Inform them on the cause and effect.

But if a girl in the crowd (who may or may not have any desire to disrobe in public) is chanted at by a bunch of drunk guys to do so, isn't that in itself sexual harassment? Doesn't matter whether it causes her to do something or not.

I sense an undercurrent from some of "hey, why can't we just have our fun? Big deal if there's some collateral damage".

Hey, I like boobs as much as the next guy, but there seems a time, a place and a way to see boobs that doesn't make people feel uncomfortable to walk around in their own neighbourhood or revel in the celebration of their team's victory. Maybe it's the Dad of a daughter in me...

[DoubleF]

Counter chant?

#Keepitclassy


As for the booze argument from a few pages ago... I have a question.

Is flashing the norm for other events like St Patty's Day, New Years etc.? If no, I don't understand the argument that "it happens" when booze is involved. It's more likely a peer pressure thing from the expectation of the environment.

[Joe Nieuwendyk]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Lol to everyone jumping on the anti-harrassment bus..

You're not anti-harrassment?

[mennoknight]

These threads are a great source when I need to find out just exactly who is a complete knob with 100% wrong opinions.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Lol to everyone jumping on the anti-harrassment bus..

Bottom line is the girls who participate are as equally guilty as anyone else. They chose the lift their shirt. Assault is a different story and if anyone, man or woman touched another who was not invited to do so, is assaulting another person. That stuff isn't cool.

Bottom line, people chanting does not cause people to do things. People making the choice to do something encourages others to follow suit however.

Girls that dont want to participate, educate the girls who are and Inform them on the cause and effect.

The chanting, pressuring, herd mentality of a drunken mob of men makes women feel unsafe, unwelcome, and uncomfortable. Just stop doing it, regardless of the technical definition of assault etc. It's not funny, it's not cool, it's just dumb.

Hey if a girl jumps on the hood of a car out of nowhere and shows her boobs, that's cool, but stop with the chanting holy #### it just makes you look like a horny 15 year old.