[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[FAN]

Originally Posted by AcGold

For some people but really it wasn't that much hype. Most people were aware that 5 games didn't really mean that much. Most players can go on a hot streak here or there.

I disagree with this. Baertschi was considered one of, if not the top prospect in the CHL. The fact that he was able to come in and produce offensively in the NHL suggested he was the real deal and a surefire Flame the following season. He also started the lockout year in the AHL looking pretty dominant at times. There was quite a bit of hype.

[theoforever]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

To quote Crumpy-Grunt:

"...Its ok for a fan base to be butthurt because they basically spent 3-4 years developing a player only for him to return them a draft pick one full round lower than where they picked him...."

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

I would argue Gaudreau sucks defensively asides from his ability to poke check and stick lift using his sleight of hand to his advantage..

Wrong....

...and poke checking and stick lifting is defensive play so you can't really say "asides from"

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by AcGold

I would say some but not lots. If he broke the top 6 that would have been a huge success, not much hype really. Gaudreau and Bennett have lots of excitement behind them.

I would say there was tons of hype, but based at least partly on the fact that the prospect cupboards were mostly bare. Nothing wrong with that either. He lit up the WHL post draft, he did well in his first, short stint, but that all happened 3+ years ago and he didn't seem to develop in the way we had hoped. Development isn't necessarily linear, so good luck to Sven on turning things around, but not too much luck.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

Wrong...
...and poke checking and stick lifting is defensive play so you can't really say "asides from"

Yeah, what do you call "defensive play"? You can prevent the other team from getting chances to score in a number of ways.

When Gaudreau is on the ice, Flames' opponents get 29.74 shots on goal per 60 minutes. That's 11th on the flames, about equal with Hudler. How much of that is Johnny and how much is the other guys on the ice? How much is quality of competition? It's possible to figure that out, I'm not going to do the leg work at the moment, but just on the bare face of it, he's middle of the pack on his own team. If you want to look at shot attempts against instead he moves up to 9th.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by FAN

I disagree with this. Baertschi was considered one of, if not the top prospect in the CHL. The fact that he was able to come in and produce offensively in the NHL suggested he was the real deal and a surefire Flame the following season. He also started the lockout year in the AHL looking pretty dominant at times. There was quite a bit of hype.

Yeah our cupboards were bare but still, he was hyped as a top 6 guy at best whereas Monahan, Bennett and Johnny have franchise player, top line, championship winner hype.

It was an overreaction to just how bad our prospect pool was at the time, yet the hype never got any where near our young guys now. The lack of any other prospects placed unfair pressure on him that he clearly couldn't handle.

[Roof-Daddy]

Sven was a 7 among a bunch 5's and 6's in our prospect pool when we drafted him.

Then we drafted some 8's and 9's, as well as had some of those 5's and 6's develop into 7's and 8's.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Sven was a 7 among a bunch 5's and 6's in our prospect pool when we drafted him.

Then we drafted some 8's and 9's, as well as had some of those 5's and 6's develop into 7's and 8's.

No he wasn't. He was a legitimate top shelf prospect. There was lots of hype around him because he deserved it.

He hasn't progressed as much as we would have expected 3 years ago, but let's not try to re-write history here.

Baertschi was arguably the best junior player in the country as a 19 year old.

He just hasn't been able to take it to the next level.

[Tinordi]

Sven was never a blue chip prospect no matter how hard some here wanted him to be and how well he played as a 19 year old. Which means, by my unilateral definition, that he wasn't an 8-9 and that he was vastly overhyped because of the severe dearth of any halfway decent prospects in the system and the desperate need for fans to have any sign of hope in what was a bad stretch for the franchise.

[Red Menace]

a lot of revisionist history going on in this thread.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by theoforever

To quote Crumpy-Grunt:

"...Its ok for a fan base to be butthurt because they basically spent 3-4 years developing a player only for him to return them a draft pick one full round lower than where they picked him...."

Where he was picked is largely irrelevant. It is about the value the asset has now and how that value will change going forward.
The Flames figured that the value would drop as soon as next pre-season when he became waiver eligible (ignoring the fact he said he wouldn't even sign) - so they pulled the trigger on moving the asset now for a 2nd.

[CliffFletcher]

Scoring a pile of points in junior doesn't make you a top-shelf prospect. There's a reason the guy was drafted 13th overall, not 3rd. A good comparable in this draft is Travis Konecny. The hype around Baertschi peaked quite early, and declined relentlessly once he started playing with men.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No he wasn't. He was a legitimate top shelf prospect. There was lots of hype around him because he deserved it.

He hasn't progressed as much as we would have expected 3 years ago, but let's not try to re-write history here.

Baertschi was arguably the best junior player in the country as a 19 year old.

He just hasn't been able to take it to the next level.

There was a lot of Feaster hype. Based on Burke's critique, I don't think he was as highly thought of elsewhere.

He may have put up big numbers but he never really impressed me when I watched him in junior. I never saw any real top end talent. He has an average shot, average skating, average passing, was obviously not strong. I guess he had above average hockey sense in the offensive zone, but in the defensive zone, he was below average.

Whenever I watched the Winterhawks play, I always thought Rattie had the better skills, especially the shot. Plus Sven never impressed me in the playoffs, especially when it mattered most against the Oil Kings, sure you can say that was the best team in junior hockey, but it's not like Sven was carrying Seth Jones, Ty Rattie, Tyler Wotherspoon, Derrick Pouliot, Brendan Liepsic, and company.

What I did see a lot of was Sven racking up lots of points in blow out games of inferior junior opponents, but when he faced top end talent (WHL Championships or WJC), he was always invisible.

His 3 goals in 5 games in the NHL were nothing special. Two garbage goals in the slot and a stupid giveaway by a Coyotes' defenseman which he had a nice finish. It's not like he was driving the play or dangling like Johnny is.

By the way, what happened to Aschax? Did he stop being a Flames fan after the trade? Haven't seen him posting anymore.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Where he was picked is largely irrelevant. It is about the value the asset has now and how that value will change going forward.
The Flames figured that the value would drop as soon as next pre-season when he became waiver eligible (ignoring the fact he said he wouldn't even sign) - so they pulled the trigger on moving the asset now for a 2nd.

Many likely know where I sit, but I don't think you can ignore the whether he'd sign point. I truly believe the Flames would not have traded Sven had he not said he won't sign.

I don't think his value on the trade market at any point, or what they'd thought it would be in the situation you described was going to be enough for them to move him. I think they would have rather worked with him on trying to overcome the mental issues because they believe he has the tools, but only traded him because they now knew they'd lose him for nothing in the offseason.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Yeah, what do you call "defensive play"? You can prevent the other team from getting chances to score in a number of ways.

When Gaudreau is on the ice, Flames' opponents get 29.74 shots on goal per 60 minutes. That's 11th on the flames, about equal with Hudler. How much of that is Johnny and how much is the other guys on the ice? How much is quality of competition? It's possible to figure that out, I'm not going to do the leg work at the moment, but just on the bare face of it, he's middle of the pack on his own team. If you want to look at shot attempts against instead he moves up to 9th.

Not sure if you are arguing with me or what but my only point was Gaudreau doesn't "suck defensively" like grumpy guy said.

I don't expect the highly offensive players like Hudler, and Johnny to bring it defensively like a Bouma or Stajan...so middle of the pack is fine with me.

[CroFlames]

Exactly. Sven was a legitimate 8-9 prospect.

But a prospect is a prospect, not a player. Sometimes they turn into players, sometimes they don't.

Time will tell for Sven, but it isn't looking good for him so far.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by 868904

There was a lot of Feaster hype. Based on Burke's critique, I don't think he was as highly thought of elsewhere.

He may have put up big numbers but he never really impressed me when I watched him in junior. I never saw any real top end talent. He has an average shot, average skating, average passing, was obviously not strong. I guess he had above average hockey sense in the offensive zone, but in the defensive zone, he was below average.

Whenever I watched the Winterhawks play, I always thought Rattie had the better skills, especially the shot. Plus Sven never impressed me in the playoffs, especially when it mattered most against the Oil Kings, sure you can say that was the best team in junior hockey, but it's not like Sven was carrying Seth Jones, Ty Rattie, Tyler Wotherspoon, Derrick Pouliot, Brendan Liepsic, and company.

What I did see a lot of was Sven racking up lots of points in blow out games of inferior junior opponents, but when he faced top end talent (WHL Championships or WJC), he was always invisible.

His 3 goals in 5 games in the NHL were nothing special. Two garbage goals in the slot and a stupid giveaway by a Coyotes' defenseman which he had a nice finish. It's not like he was driving the play or dangling like Johnny is.

By the way, what happened to Aschax? Did he stop being a Flames fan after the trade? Haven't seen him posting anymore.

Wow, hadn't noticed that. This trade just keeps getting better and better!

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by 868904

Whenever I watched the Winterhawks play, I always thought Rattie had the better skills, especially the shot. Plus Sven never impressed me in the playoffs, especially when it mattered most against the Oil Kings, sure you can say that was the best team in junior hockey, but it's not like Sven was carrying Seth Jones, Ty Rattie, Tyler Wotherspoon, Derrick Pouliot, Brendan Liepsic, and company.

A lot of comments back then from what I remember speculating that Rattie who was a decent finisher, benefited from being on the same line as Baertschi, not the other way around for what it's worth.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Sven was never a blue chip prospect no matter how hard some here wanted him to be and how well he played as a 19 year old. Which means, by my unilateral definition, that he wasn't an 8-9 and that he was vastly overhyped because of the severe dearth of any halfway decent prospects in the system and the desperate need for fans to have any sign of hope in what was a bad stretch for the franchise.

lol

you don't think he was, therefor he wasn't

ok then

(and didn't mean to thank your post)

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

lol

you don't think he was, therefor he wasn't

ok then

(and didn't mean to thank your post)

There is a button to take back your Thanks.