2015 Alberta Budget Discussion

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But sometime around 1994, the Alberta political class basically capitulated to the energy industry. I've sometimes thought we could save a lot of money and hassle by doing away with the provincial government altogether and let the province be run by a board appointed by the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers. Maybe throw in a rancher or two. Have them meet twice a year at a fishing lodge and hash things out. Turn the legislature into a provincial museum.

The reality, of course, is since the early nineties that Provincial Government has spent over 300 billion dollars, most of it taken from the oil and gas industry and it's profits, with the largest single portion of it going to public sector salaries. Much more than anywhere else in Canada.

If the province capitulated to the energy industry, it surely has capitulated even more to it's employees?

[psicodude]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

The reality, of course, is since the early nineties that Provincial Government has spent over 300 billion dollars, most of it taken from the oil and gas industry and it's profits, with the largest single portion of it going to public sector salaries. Much more than anywhere else in Canada.

If the province capitulated to the energy industry, it surely has capitulated even more to it's employees?

You keep spewing argument, but haven't backed it up with proof yet. A quick search of StatsCan paints a different picture:

National avg wage for public sector: $53,369
AB avg wage for public sector: $60,995
ON avg wage for public sector: $55,912

(Numbers from 2011)

National avg wage: $48,646
AB avg wage: $59,766
ON avg wage for public sector: $48,794

(From 2014)

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...ovt62a-eng.htm

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...labr79-eng.htm

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

If the province capitulated to the energy industry, it surely has capitulated even more to it's employees?

If the government was able to capitulate to its employees, it's because voters were distracted with tax cuts that were only possible because government services were subsidized by energy royalties. So yeah, it's a big circle of selfishness. The energy companies got a favourable royalty regime and a veto on government policy, public sector employees got handsome contracts, voters paid the lowest taxes in the country, and the Conservatives stayed in power. What could go wrong?

I don't blame the energy companies. They exist, after all, solely to turn a profit for their shareholders.

I don't blame government employees. Like everyone else, they're out to secure the best compensation possible.

I don't even blame the Conservatives all that much. They just did what they could to get re-elected every four years.

I blame the voters who thought they could have the lowest tax rates in the country by far and still have the kinds of schools, roads, and hospitals as everyone else in the country. We're the ones who sold our kids' future for a few thousand more dollars in our pocket for tips to Mexico and dinners at Earls.

[troutman]

Professor Terguson: Good answer. Good answer. I like the way you think. I'm gonna be watching you.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by psicodude

You keep spewing argument, but haven't backed it up with proof yet. A quick search of StatsCan paints a different picture:

National avg wage for public sector: $53,369
AB avg wage for public sector: $60,995
ON avg wage for public sector: $55,912

(Numbers from 2011)

National avg wage: $48,646
AB avg wage: $59,766
ON avg wage for public sector: $48,794

(From 2014)

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...ovt62a-eng.htm

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...labr79-eng.htm

None of your statistics have anything to do with what I posted so I'm not sure how to respond.

You've shown that AB wages are higher than Ontario and the Canadian Average. You've also shown that the AB public wage (before unpaid benefits such as pensions, etc.) were higher in 2011 than the total AB average wage in 2014. Imagine how much higher they would be after including total compensation?

[GP_Matt]

I agree with Crazy on this. The wage table doesn't include pensions but it also doesn't include job security and wage security. There is no public employee layoff thread because they aren't being laid off. If the public service wants the higher wages they have to take all the ups and downs that come with it. Stop collective bargaining and wages will jump when there is an employee shortage and fall when there are too many applicants. Some employees will make more money as their performance dictates while others will make less.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

I agree with Crazy on this. The wage table doesn't include pensions but it also doesn't include job security and wage security. There is no public employee layoff thread because they aren't being laid off. If the public service wants the higher wages they have to take all the ups and downs that come with it. Stop collective bargaining and wages will jump when there is an employee shortage and fall when there are too many applicants. Some employees will make more money as their performance dictates while others will make less.

Ban a protection guaranteed to Canadian citizens by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Jesus Christ, what planet am I on?

[Flash Walken]

Just some food for thought here while we're busy blaming public sector employees:

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

I agree with Crazy on this. The wage table doesn't include pensions but it also doesn't include job security and wage security. There is no public employee layoff thread because they aren't being laid off. If the public service wants the higher wages they have to take all the ups and downs that come with it. Stop collective bargaining and wages will jump when there is an employee shortage and fall when there are too many applicants. Some employees will make more money as their performance dictates while others will make less.

You sure do.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

There is no public employee layoff thread because they aren't being laid off.

I believe this is incorrect. I'm pretty sure that there have been some layoffs at the AER and I know that Alberta Innovates Technology Futures has fired some staff.

[psicodude]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

None of your statistics have anything to do with what I posted so I'm not sure how to respond.

You've shown that AB wages are higher than Ontario and the Canadian Average. You've also shown that the AB public wage (before unpaid benefits such as pensions, etc.) were higher in 2011 than the total AB average wage in 2014. Imagine how much higher they would be after including total compensation?

You have blamed public employees for the budget issues several times in this thread. You have claimed that they make disproportionately more money than private sector employees in this thread and the facts say otherwise. The truth is that the two sectors are very close when it comes to compensation. True, the public sector numbers don't include benefits such as pensions, but the private numbers also include a ton of people making minimum wage which brings the average down.

The point here (which was articulated perfectly by CliffFletcher) is that blaming public sector employees for this mess is wrong. Regardless of which sector you work in, the fact remains that we all reaped the benefits of the oil industry for a lot of years, and now the time has come to actually pay for it. Both private and public equally.

If anyone thinks that public sector employees will get out of this mess without a scratch, then they are kidding themselves. The minute those contracts are done they are going to take a big roll-back.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I believe this is incorrect. I'm pretty sure that there have been some layoffs at the AER and I know that Alberta Innovates Technology Futures has fired some staff.

The AER is not public sector. They are a private business with a government mandate.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Ban a protection guaranteed to Canadian citizens by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Jesus Christ, what planet am I on?

I never said ban it. I said that they could give it up voluntarily if they think non-Union employees have life so good.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

The AER is not public sector. They are a private business with a government mandate.

I didn't realize that. I haven't done any work in Alberta in a number of years and never really directly dealt with the EUB/ERCB/AER. I always assumed they were a Government organization.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by psicodude

You have blamed public employees for the budget issues several times in this thread. You have claimed that they make disproportionately more money than private sector employees in this thread and the facts say otherwise. The truth is that the two sectors are very close when it comes to compensation. True, the public sector numbers don't include benefits such as pensions, but the private numbers also include a ton of people making minimum wage which brings the average down.

The point here (which was articulated perfectly by CliffFletcher) is that blaming public sector employees for this mess is wrong. Regardless of which sector you work in, the fact remains that we all reaped the benefits of the oil industry for a lot of years, and now the time has come to actually pay for it. Both private and public equally.

If anyone thinks that public sector employees will get out of this mess without a scratch, then they are kidding themselves. The minute those contracts are done they are going to take a big roll-back.

I posted a link to an entire report showing exactly how much more public sector employees are making compared to their private sector counterparts, if you care to read it go ahead but stop making baseless accusations.

Your 'facts' confirm that the public wage average is higher than the private before counting unpaid benefits, where the public employees are even further ahead. If in fact it is true that no public employees make minimum wage doesn't matter... we should likely have some positions at that rate but the unions would never allow it.

Thus far, the private sector and the average taxpayer has borne the brunt of provincial overspending and mismanagement. It's time for the public sector to take some responsibility and acknowledge the huge rise in public salaries is unsustainable and increased spending is not a solution our current problems.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Just some food for thought here while we're busy blaming public sector employees:

This chart only reinforces the fact we are overpaying the existing employees.

In 2010 Alberta spent $83,326 on wage/salary per public employee while Manitoba spent $60,000, and the Canadian average was 35% lower than what Alberta spent. (CANSIM Table 183-0002)

If there were lower salaries would we have been able to employ more people....?

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

This chart only reinforces the fact we are overpaying the existing employees.

In 2010 Alberta spent $83,326 on wage/salary per public employee while Manitoba spent $60,000, and the Canadian average was 35% lower than what Alberta spent. (CANSIM Table 183-0002)

If there were lower salaries would we have been able to employ more people....?

What is the difference in cost of living between Alberta and Manitoba? The difference in the cost of housing alone is staggering.

[DoubleK]

It definitely ain't 35% higher.

[Flash Walken]

Whatever number it is, it's meaningless.

Alberta has higher wage standards due to the energy sector, that's a fact of life.

You can either reduce production to reduce labour costs, or you can collect more taxes to offset those labour costs, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

This is basic economics.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Ban a protection guaranteed to Canadian citizens by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Jesus Christ, what planet am I on?

An extremely tenuously protected right, and one that could easily be overturned by section 33.