2015 Alberta Budget Discussion

[nik-]

I personally think voting for the Wildrose after all their podunk bull#### is more embarrassing than voting for the PC's who've taken advantage of you.

Vote Liberal, vote NDP, don't vote for a backwards rural party. Lets not enhance the redneck "Texas North" reputation of this province.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by nik-

I personally think voting for the Wildrose after all their podunk bull#### is more embarrassing than voting for the PC's who've taken advantage of you.

Vote Liberal, vote NDP, don't vote for a backwards rural party. Lets not enhance the redneck "Texas North" reputation of this province.

You should visit the Calgary subreddit sometime, you might enjoy the craziness of one of the frequent visitors

[CliffFletcher]

I honestly don't know why anyone who lives in Calgary would vote for the Wildrose. Unless they want to see even more tax revenue diverted from the cities to pay for roads and hospitals in the rural part of the province in order to salve their guilt over leaving their hometown.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Up until about three months ago, every employer in this province paid at least 20 per cent higher for labour than their counterparts in other provinces. If you want to attract a welder or accountant from Ontario, you have to pay a lot more. If you want someone in Calgary to work the counter at Tim Horton's you have to pay a lot more than in Rimouski. Why would you expect the public sector to be different?

Where are you getting this information from? Latest data seems to show a marked premium in compensation of public employees compared to private.

If we are bench marking against the private sector, why is it that the public sector retains gold plated pensions that have long since disappeared from the private world because of unnaffordability?

Why is the ratio of management and administration to employees so much higher in the public sector than in the private sector? Why are unpaid benefits so much higher in the public sector if salary compensation is the same or higher?

http://www.cfib-fcei.ca/cfib-documents/rr3348.pdf

[flamefan74]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I honestly don't know why anyone who lives in Calgary would vote for the Wildrose. Unless they want to see even more tax revenue diverted from the cities to pay for roads and hospitals in the rural part of the province in order to salve their guilt over leaving their hometown.

Right. Cause rural hospitals are a waste of money. Lets spend that money on more giant hoop art to beautify the cities.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

Where do I sign up for some of that above average public salary? I took a hefty pay cut to become a public servant.

Likewise, one of my counterparts' team had two vacant project manager positions for months last year because the pay band was 10-20% lower than what oil and gas was paying.

The total public sector compensation packages might be equivalent once you factor in perks like LAPP, but places like AHS target 33rd percentile market salaries... which is definitely not unreasonable.

[Bill Bumface]

AHS nurses seem to make $80K+ around here.

Nurses at a private home seem to be more in the $60K range from what I can find.

General care staff at a private home are in the $40K range.

Is there no way that some of the tasks not requiring a RN certification could be performed by general care staff?

Would all Registered Nurses flee to the US if they were being paid $70K here?

But, these things can't even be looked at. Because unions.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

AHS nurses seem to make $80K+ around here.

Nurses at a private home seem to be more in the $60K range from what I can find.

General care staff at a private home are in the $40K range.

Is there no way that some of the tasks not requiring a RN certification could be performed by general care staff?

Would all Registered Nurses flee to the US if they were being paid $70K here?

But, these things can't even be looked at. Because unions.

Actually, back in the late 90s Registered Nurses were fleeing to the U.S. The province had a big problem retaining them, along with other trained professionals. Remember the whole 'brain drain' scare?

Look, I'm not a big fan of unions. But if we're going to compare public sector salaries in Alberta to those in other provinces, we should do so in the context of a comparison between private sector salaries in Alberta compared to those in other provinces.

And the fact is, contracts and collective agreements were signed. The government can't just wave a wand and change them.

Alberta is going to have to cut costs and increase revenue (taxes) in order to get off the teat of energy revenues. People who want to balance the books without recognizing the need for any sacrifice on their own part are childish, and the reason we're in this situation in the first place. We've been living in a false economy in this province - all of us - for the better part of 15 years. Now it's time to face reality.

[Harry Lime]

http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...s-years-budget

PCs promise 'no more tax hikes for 10 years', after rolling out tax hikes to health, fuel and restorative services (alcohol). I have two issues with this. The first is, this government must think the average voter to be a particularly stupid breed of peasant. The ink isn't even dry on the tax hikes, and we are supposed to be grateful for no 'new' tax hikes, simply because it is the last statement that was uttered.

The second is, that this is a fairly transparent way of saying that there is not going to be any discussion of corporate tax hikes, or royalty review, for the next 10 years. Any time the issue arises in the media, or in legislature, the government can cite this decision and claim that they are stoically and unwaveringly keeping to their promise of no new taxes. I sense some ridiculous Atticus Finch poses in Prentices future.

If I were running as a Liberal, I would be all over this, treating as a misstep, and not allowing the PCs to cloak this maneuver in an air of 'responsibility'.

I was actually grudgingly hopeful for a few months when Prentice took power.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by flamefan74

Right. Cause rural hospitals are a waste of money. Lets spend that money on more giant hoop art to beautify the cities.

Cost to expand existing hospital in Medicine Hat: $220 million.
Paid by: Province of Alberta

Cost of blue ring art piece: $0.47 million.
Paid by: City of Calgary

What do these two things have to do with one another?

My point is that Albertans who fume and moan about transfer payments to Quebec and New Brunswick seem perfectly fine with the province transferring money from Alberta's cities to the rural parts of the province. Me, I don't see a difference. A vote for Wildrose is a vote for less provincial funding for the place I live.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Up until about three months ago, every employer in this province paid at least 20 per cent higher for labour than their counterparts in other provinces. If you want to attract a welder or accountant from Ontario, you have to pay a lot more. If you want someone in Calgary to work the counter at Tim Horton's you have to pay a lot more than in Rimouski. Why would you expect the public sector to be different?

And I think it's critically important to acknowledge the role extensive oilsands development has played in increasing inflation in the province.

Which is all well and good except that part of the business model appears to be externalizing all those costs onto the tax payers of alberta, rather than seeing Alberta collect higher taxes to deal with the influx of residents, labour, and associated costs.

This is something Peter Lougheed talked about while Premiere and continued to talk about up to his death:

Lougheed, whose battles with Ottawa over the National Energy Program in the early 1980s are part of Alberta lore, said the province's current economy is leaving a lot of losers and few winners.

In particular, farmers, small-business owners and people of fixed incomes are struggling to keep pace.

"If you overheat an economy and you affect citizens generally in terms of the costs of everything they buy . . . you're to the detriment of the citizens today," he said.

Lougheed said "he wouldn't have envisioned" that the Klein government would have permitted so much oilsands development without more conditions, like greater requirements for companies to help fund capital projects in the mined areas.

During his time in office, Lougheed said his government established conditions for Syncrude to work in an orderly way with the government to develop the provincial facilities necessary in northeast Alberta.

"What conditions, if any, did the province put on the oilsands projects?" he asked of the Klein government.

Political scientist McCormick argued that Klein's long-held plan of letting the market prevail failed Albertans when it was clearly time for the government to step in and help manage the economy.

The government's inability to adequately plan in the last few years is best epitomized through the allocation of the $400 prosperity cheques earlier this year to nearly all Albertans -- at a cost of $1.3 billion to the provincial treasury.

But what apparently prompted Lougheed the reinsert himself into the political debate was the Klein government’s hands-off approach to the energy industry. In 2005-6, the oilpatch, especially the oilsands, were booming again and Klein’s policy was to let the market decide.

After taking a helicopter ride over the oilsands, Lougheed grew increasingly uneasy about the direction of policy and development and spoke out.

Royalties had fallen well below targets set in his day, said Lougheed. The oil boom brought inflation that was hurting consumers and other businesses and the province was about to ship thousands of value-added jobs down the pipeline by sending bitumen to U.S refineries, he warned.

The former premier called for “orderly growth” in the oilsands, one project at a time, rather than the black-gold rush unleashed by Klein.

“I feel strongly we should be processing bitumen in Alberta,” he said in a recent interview.

More recently, he came out against TransCanada’s proposed Keystone XL pipeline to ship Alberta bitumen to the U.S. Gulf Coast.

Maybe everyone should give back their Ralph Bucks?

[Bmuzyka]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Cost to expand existing hospital in Medicine Hat: $220 million.
Paid by: Province of Alberta

Cost of blue ring art piece: $0.47 million.
Paid by: City of Calgary

What do these two things have to do with one another?

My point is that Albertans who fume and moan about transfer payments to Quebec and New Brunswick seem perfectly fine with the province transferring money from Alberta's cities to the rural parts of the province. Me, I don't see a difference. A vote for Wildrose is a vote for less provincial funding for the place I live.

Since when is Medicine Hat Regional Hospital a "Rural Hospital?"

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Look, I'm not a big fan of unions. But if we're going to compare public sector salaries in Alberta to those in other provinces, we should do so in the context of a comparison between private sector salaries in Alberta compared to those in other provinces.

Why isn't comparing an RN in the private sector in Alberta vs the public sector in Alberta valid?

And I fully understand we need to pay public sector workers more than elsewhere in Alberta as long as the cost of living exceeds the rest of the country.

I do wish we paid much higher tax in the $100,000+ range. Or any other good way someone can come up with to keep spending power from going off the charts and inflating everything here.

I guess that is another important question. Why does the oil industry pay so much? Because the work sucks, so you have to pay a ton to attract talent? Because the job is that hard that you need the smartest people in the world to migrate to the work?

Or is it because the margins for that business are so good, combined with a boom/bust nature, they end up competing for labour in a stretched market constantly.

Are there any mechanisms we can put in place to even the keel of our provincial industry a bit?

It seems like it would trickle down to more reasonable labour rates for all industries, and the public sector.

This would also incentivize economic diversification. You'd have to be crazy to try start a non-energy industry company in Calgary that wants to sell internationally, as you are paying more for everything off the bat, but making the same as if you were located elsewhere.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

The first is, this government must think the average voter to be a particularly stupid breed of peasant. The ink isn't even dry on the tax hikes, and we are supposed to be grateful for no 'new' tax hikes, simply because it is the last statement that was uttered.

We only have ourselves to blame for voting for these clowns time and again for 40 odd years. But all dynasty must end so let's see how this one ends. I have a sense that people are tired of them already but there's just not good alternatives to them.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

-snip-
Maybe everyone should give back their Ralph Bucks?

basically they are sidestepping that by just taking it back, and then some, in taxes. Sure, they could have asked, but taking is easier.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This is something Peter Lougheed talked about while Premiere and continued to talk about up to his death:

It saddens me that more people didn't listen to Lougheed in his autumn years. He represented a more rational, far-sighted, nuanced approach to Conservatism than the populists and ideologues who took over the party in his wake. I've had public policy debates where the people opposing me accused me of being a liberal, and I've had to explain that I was quoting arguments made by Peter Lougheed almost verbatim.

Lougheed saw the oil industry as the main pillar of our economy, but also as a powerful political lobby that had to be watched closely and restrained when necessary. But sometime around 1994, the Alberta political class basically capitulated to the energy industry. I've sometimes thought we could save a lot of money and hassle by doing away with the provincial government altogether and let the province be run by a board appointed by the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers. Maybe throw in a rancher or two. Have them meet twice a year at a fishing lodge and hash things out. Turn the legislature into a provincial museum.

[troutman]

Finance minister says sales tax could erase deficit but public doesn't want it

http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...doesnt-want-it

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by troutman

Finance minister says sales tax could erase deficit but public doesn't want it

http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...doesnt-want-it

Yeah, it'll erase deficit for now. But won't stop them from going back in the hole again. Provinces with high PST generally have the largest deficits.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It saddens me that more people didn't listen to Lougheed in his autumn years. He represented a more rational, far-sighted, nuanced approach to Conservatism than the populists and ideologues who took over the party in his wake.

I don't know. I get Lougheed was good at standing up to the Trudeau about our revenue independence, but a lot of his diversification ideas were very poor. Did it really make sense for the province to own its own airline? I would suggest that we're probably better off having Westjet HQ in Calgary than we ever were when Pacific Western Air HQ was here, and it doesn't cost us any public money. There were lots of other public money boondoggles in that time period as well (NovaTel, Swan Hills, Gainers, Millar Western Pulp, Magnesium Company of Canada, Al-Pac, etc) Basically the only public investments that did well were ones that didn't diversify the province at all. (Syncrude and AEC)

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I don't know. I get Lougheed was good at standing up to the Trudeau about our revenue independence, but a lot of his diversification ideas were very poor. Did it really make sense for the province to own its own airline? I would suggest that we're probably better off having Westjet HQ in Calgary than we ever were when Pacific Western Air HQ was here, and it doesn't cost us any public money.

How much money was lost in Pacific Western? It was bought for $37 million and sold for $54 million.