2015 Alberta Budget Discussion

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by darklord700

Seriously, this budget achieves nothing. When oil prices go back up, we'll be left with smaller deficits and the higher taxes will remain. Prentice didn't offend the under $50K income earners but made enermies with everyone making more then $50K and the public sector.

Enemies? I like to think most Albertans have finally come to the realization that we have to get off the addiction to royalties. The last 10-15 years in this province have been a kind of false economy, like a family paying their utility bills and property taxes out of a good run of VLT winnings.

The finance minister was interviewed on the CBC yesterday, and he offered some of the government's reasoning on the pace of tax increases and budget cuts. If they cut too much of the budget, putting more Albertans out of work when the O&G and private sector is already engaged in mass layoffs, it could nudge the economy into full-blown recession. If they raised taxes too rapidly, the drop in consumer spending would also hurt the economy. So the government is trying to walk a middle path, using borrowing and a deficit financing for two years to bridge the transition. And what I expect to see at that point is the top two income tax brackets increased to something like 12 and 14 per cent. That would still leave Albertans with the lowest taxes in the country.

I think most Albertans are waking from the delusion that they can have top-flight infrastructure and public services paying the tax rates of rural Arkansas.

[Burke Salad]

Originally Posted by lambeburger

Breakdown of the booze hikes http://aglc.ca/pdf/quickfacts/markup_rates_schedule.pdf

By my terrible math, a $12.00 mickey of say vodka would now cost you over $17.00? A whopping 41% increase? This cant be right? What am I missing here?

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

the government's reasoning on the pace of tax increases and budget cuts. If they cut too much of the budget, putting more Albertans out of work when the O&G and private sector is already engaged in mass layoffs, it could nudge the economy into full-blown recession.

I take this just the usual political rhetoric. Raising taxes on high income earners aren't going to change spending habits. If you earn over $100K, every 1% increase is just $100 for every $10K income. What they have done is death by thousand cuts. It doesn't wean AB off our addiction to resource revenues.

I'm a strong opponent to PST but I would rather have the PST now then have this health care levy + PST + bunch of user fee increase doen the road.

[username]

nm

[Muta]

I think its important to start moving away from the royalty teet. At some point, it had to happen. We need to start thinking long-term for the province, and start diversifying ourselves away from oil and more into other energies.

Gas tax sucks, but hey, it's still way cheaper than the $1.40 / L we were paying a couple years ago.

As for healthcare premiums - why not just implement user fees for showing up at a clinic or hospital? Too many people abuse the system by wasting our medical resources by coming in for a stubbed toe or a slight cough. Put a $20 fee on clinic / hospital visits and watch the unnecessary lineups disappear.

[Flash Walken]

This disconnection is mind numbing?

Wait times too long at the ER? Can't get in to see your doctor quickly?

It must be other people's fault, using up all your precious resources.

It couldn't possibly have anything to do with absurdly low tax rates and a medical system still trying to recover from the austerity cuts instituted 20 years ago. Nope, it couldn't possibly be that. Nah, it's definitely because of the healthcare managers and people abusing the system.

Efficiencies! Trim the Fat!

[Frequitude]

You see, this is exactly what pisses me off about the opposition and politics in general in this province.

Albertans will pay more get less, all to cover the government’s mistakes, according to opposition parties

http://globalnews.ca/news/1906387/al...holders-react/

That's exactly the point! We can't sustain what we were paying for what we were getting.

A message to the opposition...Stop complaining and just speaking out against the sitting party because that's what you think you're supposed to do. Start acting as if the sitting party doesn't exist. Come up with your own assessment of the current situation and put forward tangible ideas about how you'd govern and your plan to get there. Then people will take you seriously and consider you an alternative. Until then you're just a joke.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Muta

I think its important to start moving away from the royalty teet. At some point, it had to happen. We need to start thinking long-term for the province, and start diversifying ourselves away from oil and more into other energies.

Gas tax sucks, but hey, it's still way cheaper than the $1.40 / L we were paying a couple years ago.

As for healthcare premiums - why not just implement user fees for showing up at a clinic or hospital? Too many people abuse the system by wasting our medical resources by coming in for a stubbed toe or a slight cough. Put a $20 fee on clinic / hospital visits and watch the unnecessary lineups disappear.

At some point you know that gas is going to find its way up to that mark again and go beyond it.

I've said it before, I just don't like user fee's because for the really poor and struggling it now becomes a decision around eating or seeing a doctor. Access to health care has to be compassionate and universally allowable.

In terms of the stubbed toe and the slight cost, I would think that would come down to better triage training then anything else.

Hey I get it, I've had that frustration like crazy when I've had to go in to ER (last time was probably 20 years ago when I went I threw an irregular heart beat during flu season.

With Flash's point, respectfully, its way past due for a very deep audit into the administrative and management side of Alberta's Health Program. If there's a brier patch that needs to be looked at seriously its that.

Health Care results are far from good enough for us to not look at where the money is going. I believe that when I last looked at figures comparing provinces Alberta had one of the highest family doctor to specialist wait times at nearly 10 weeks. One of the highest waiting periods for access to technology and drug approvals, and our overall access was ranked fairly low as well.

I think in terms of value for the dollar when it came to access to personal and resources Alberta was ranked 7th in the country, and that's a very poor score when it comes to what we spend on health care.

So either we need to focus more on the front end side with the doctors and nurses. Or how we are managing our funds and our employment practices.

While I don't necessarily think that a crash budget reduction is in order, I think it does have to almost certainly have the rider that the cuts have to come more from the non front line services side of things then closing clinics reduced equipment usage etc.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

You see, this is exactly what pisses me off about the opposition and politics in general in this province.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1906387/al...holders-react/

That's exactly the point! We can't sustain what we were paying for what we were getting.

A message to the opposition...Stop complaining and just speaking out against the sitting party because that's what you think you're supposed to do. Start acting as if the sitting party doesn't exist. Come up with your own assessment of the current situation and put forward tangible ideas about how you'd govern and your plan to get there. Then people will take you seriously and consider you an alternative. Until then you're just a joke.

I get what you're saying, but I think your getting lost in the grass here. Why would they do that, their job is primarily to hold the government accountable, not to act as a shadow government.

Where the fall off point comes is during an election where the opposition should be getting into building their platform, not during a regular sitting in the house of commons.

And why as an opposition party would I give away my election strategy in points prior to a writ being dropped?

The opposition should give an indication of where they stand on issues during seating, (something that a lot of opposition parties federally and provincially can't do). But Their job is not to release shadow budgets etc.

The opposition needs to hold the governments feet to the fire and force them to answer questions about their policies and laws.

[Regorium]

The increased taxes don't piss me off. What pisses me off is that they don't accomplish anything - we're still running a ridiculous deficit. They basically made so many half-measures and compromises that they are making everyone mad.

Do a real tax increase. Do real cuts in the public sector. Cut services and programs that we can't afford. Get us back to a surplus, and I'll feel like I'm sharing the pain to help Alberta get through a rough time. Right now, I just feel like I'm being taxed more for the sake of it, and that it really isn't accomplishing anything at all.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This disconnection is mind numbing? It couldn't possibly have anything to do with absurdly low tax rates and a medical system still trying to recover from the austerity cuts instituted 20 years ago. Nope, it couldn't possibly be that. Nah, it's definitely because of the healthcare managers and people abusing the system.

Efficiencies! Trim the Fat!

It's not an either or. AHS just announced 1700 job cuts and about 375 million in savings without really losing any services...

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/First...892/story.html

“The time has come for us to start looking at how we can do things in a more efficient manner. I don’t think Albertans should have to pay 20 and 30 per cent more for things.”

That's some fat trimmed. In the last 20 years we've had the highest population increases and almost the highest inflation rates. We've got lots of doctors and nurses, we just have to pay them more.

[FireFly]

[gasman]

Originally Posted by cracher

or (3) spending it to get continuing education credits in Vegas, shareholder's meetings on a golf course in Indian Wells, business development meetings 3 nights a week at Teatro, lease a black series benzo to get you to the business development meetings...

I mostly agree with you... but the benefits of corporations are not really a secret. I would be ok with a bump on the corporate side.

That is a good point, but at some point even the money spent on Vegas, Golfing, "BD" and Car rentals are going back into the economy. Does Teatro stay open if they are empty 3 nights a week?

There are plenty of examples of companies that sit on cash, Apple being probably the best know example, their business model seems to work...

Personally, as an owner of a small business, lower corporate taxes mean I either pocket more money in the form of dividends (which get taxed at both the corporate and personal level) or I spend more on "expenses" most of which end up going to local business.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by Muta

I think its important to start moving away from the royalty teet. At some point, it had to happen. We need to start thinking long-term for the province, and start diversifying ourselves away from oil and more into other energies.

Gas tax sucks, but hey, it's still way cheaper than the $1.40 / L we were paying a couple years ago.

As for healthcare premiums - why not just implement user fees for showing up at a clinic or hospital? Too many people abuse the system by wasting our medical resources by coming in for a stubbed toe or a slight cough. Put a $20 fee on clinic / hospital visits and watch the unnecessary lineups disappear.

When I look at the numbers, I don't see a savings by charging a $20 upfront fee. The big dollars are spent on serious illness. The kind of illnesses that can be caught early by frontline doctors.

A nervous mom comes in ER five nights a week with a baby experiencing minor illness -- cost to the system: nominally $75 a pop (I'm guessing). Nervous mom with sick baby can't afford 20 bucks and doesn't get symptoms checked out -- cost to the system: zero dollars.

However in the 1 in 3000 chance that the sickly infant has actually got a serious condition that was untreated at the early stage because of a $20 barrier, the health care system could be looking at $15,000-$75,000 in subsequent medical costs if the child is admitted to hospital.


Second viewpoint:
For that user fee to be effective, everybody MUST pay. Inconsistent enforcement of the fee would negate its effectiveness of keeping people away from the ER for their minor owies.

But there is a resource challenge to collecting, documenting and verifying that everyone paid their fee. It costs money to handle cash in an office and record it. And if this fee is to be used to offset health care costs... every $20 paid at the front door has to be accounted for public reports by our fiscally transparent provincial government.

I do not see much savings to the healthcare expense by charging a $20 fee for every meeting with a doctor. I only see a lot of opportunity for career bureaucrats.

[Muta]

para - people who are genuinely sick and concerned will come in and pay the fee. The ones who 'hang out' at clinics several times a week for insignificant reasons will either a) pay, or b) stop coming. That's all it is. I don't have any research behind my suggestion, just personal observation. I've been to clinics and everytime I see people who are clogging up the queues with things that don't require professional medical attention.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by gasman

That is a good point, but at some point even the money spent on Vegas, Golfing, "BD" and Car rentals are going back into the economy. Does Teatro stay open if they are empty 3 nights a week?

There are plenty of examples of companies that sit on cash, Apple being probably the best know example, their business model seems to work...

Personally, as an owner of a small business, lower corporate taxes mean I either pocket more money in the form of dividends (which get taxed at both the corporate and personal level) or I spend more on "expenses" most of which end up going to local business.

Agreed. Corporate taxes in Canada are income taxes,. I think the "tax corporations" crowd doesn't really know how Corporations are taxed and on what. They also don't understand how people get money out of the Corporation and how that is taxed. It's ignorance at the end of the day, and most cannot be faulted for it, but it's tough when so many people clamour for increased taxes on something they don't understand (no offence in that, as Corp. taxes still stump me and I have some tax law experience)

Apple's issue with sitting on money is entirely a construct of the US tax code system which is outdated and arrogant.

[MacDaddy77]

Originally Posted by Muta

I've been to clinics and every time I see people who are clogging up the queues with things that don't require professional medical attention.

I really don't think it's up to you or anyone else other than a doctor to determine what doesn't require medical attention.

I for one am totally against a pay as you go system, I love the fact that no matter how minor something may be I have the opportunity to have a professional check it out and either alleviate my concerns or give an early diagnosis.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

I really don't think it's up to you or anyone else other than a doctor to determine what doesn't require medical attention.

You're right, it's not up to me. That's why I clearly stated it's a personal observation and nothing more.

[Julio]

Originally Posted by Burke Salad

By my terrible math, a $12.00 mickey of say vodka would now cost you over $17.00? A whopping 41% increase? This cant be right? What am I missing here?

That's incorrect...the pdf you linked to is the total markup, not the increase...a 26 of hard liquor goes up a quarter or so. This has a big effect on beer prices, not so much on wine or hard liquor. Have a look here:
http://aglc.ca/pdf/liquor/MarkupIncr...csCombined.pdf

[MacDaddy77]

muta, fair enough its just the public perception that wait lines are caused by people "wasting resources and time" bugs me.

the boy complaining about a headache may have a brain tumor

the girl with a sore tummy may have meningitis

the dad with a sore leg may end up having cancer (personal experience) my uncle went to doctor with sore leg and it was found he had "soft tissue sarcoma" he was dead 6 months later

As a Canadian it is within your right and privilege to see a doctor about every sniffle or ache and pain and I for one have no problem paying my share so everyone can access this.