[Signing] Flames sign Mason Raymond (3yrs, $3.15mil AAV, modified NTC)

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Stempniak signed a 1 year deal at 1M. That what 3rd line NHL fillers go for.

Raymond signed a 1 year deal for 1M the year before.

the NHL is not a socialist collective.... If you are going to pay Monahan, Gaudreau, Brodie and Gio and Wideman 6-8M a year the 3rd liners will have to make 1M /year...... and Raymond is/was a career 3rd liner.

Perreault signed by Winnipeg 9M 3 years... cheaper than Raymond) was a smallish 18 goal scorer on a solid playoff team that plays a lot more like Byron than Raymond..... 69 hits in 58 games this year. 73 hits in 69 games last year with the Ducks.

His last 3 year scoring 40 goals 90 pts was the same as Raymonds (39 goals 95 pts) and he is 2 years younger. He also won 53% of his 800 facesoff with the Ducks.

What I most disliked about the Raymond signing was that he was taking up one of the 4 soft spots that a team can have.

Stempniak was coming off an injury riddled 4 goal season, and an 8 goal campaign the year before. And he's 3 years older.

Matthieu Perrault proves my point, not yours - that a guy the same age with roughly the same points is worth about $3M. So does Jussi Jokinen, who made a million more. So does Zuccarello - younger, about the same points, about the same money.

I see in your cherry picking you ignored Stalberg, who was signed the year before and the same age, position and salary. Less points.

So who should Treliving assumed was going to play in the 4 "soft spots"?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Stempniak signed a 1 year deal at 1M. That what 3rd line NHL fillers go for.

Raymond signed a 1 year deal for 1M the year before.

the NHL is not a socialist collective.... If you are going to pay Monahan, Gaudreau, Brodie and Gio and Wideman 6-8M a year the 3rd liners will have to make 1M /year...... and Raymond is/was a career 3rd liner.

Perreault signed by Winnipeg 9M 3 years... cheaper than Raymond) was a smallish 18 goal scorer on a solid playoff team that plays a lot more like Byron than Raymond..... 69 hits in 58 games this year. 73 hits in 69 games last year with the Ducks.

His last 3 year scoring 40 goals 90 pts was the same as Raymonds (39 goals 95 pts) and he is 2 years younger. He also won 53% of his 800 facesoff with the Ducks.

What I most disliked about the Raymond signing was that he was taking up one of the 4 soft spots that a team can have.

Raymond is not in a scoring competition with Bouma and Jooris and Jones and Glencross who all do other important things.... he needs to score like Hudler, Gaudreau and Tanguay.



ie Perreault could contribute on the 3rd or even 4th line as he is more than a pure scorer like Raymond.


Hudler is making 4M ... he was a top 6 player on a good team

The Flames dumped Tanguay and were forced to take back Jones bad contract. Tanguay plays a similar game to Raymond but much higher level than Raymond. Tanguay was overpayed at 3.5M

To say that Raymond is or every was a value at 3.125M is absurd. Never mind the 3 year deal.

I can't believe you people thanked this post. There's about 1000 things wrong with it.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You will have to be more specific. Based on the evidence at hand when Raymond was signed, what evidence was there that Gaudreau, Jooris, Granlund, Ferland or even Sven would be ready for everyday NHL duty?

The issue wasn't signing Mason, it was signing him for 3 years. No onr has a problem eith Setoguchi's signing because it gave players opportunity. Coming into the season who was more likely to see NHL time, Josh Jooris or Sven Baertschi/Johnny Gaudreau? Reality is that with the setoguchi signing, our RW depth was something like

Jones
Colborne
Setoguchi
McGrattan

Our C depth was something like
Backlund
Monahan
Stajan
*

While our LW depth (based on the players' success the year before) was something like:
Hudler
Glencross
Byron
Bouma

So where we had a hole was some depth players. Yes, scoring was a concern but trying to put gauze on it was never going to be the solution for what's supposed to be a rebuild. Signings like Setoguchi where if they work out great and if they don't, well there's always next year and hopefully a prospect steps up.

I suppose the cap floor comes into play, but it doesn't explain the terms remaining on Engelland Raymond etc. Even the Oilers' bad contract Nikitin is only a 2-year deal. Did we really need to convince Engelland to come here?

We were supposed to be bad even with Raymond, but Raymond/Engelland/Bollig weren't the reasons we were actually pretty good. Granlund, Jooris, and Ferland all stepped up early in the season and got us into a good position, when Raymond returned and struggled for the next two months.

At that point Raymond didn't "become" a bad deal. He was a bad deal from the beginning because it assumed it would take three damn years for one of our prospects to become a 20 goal scorer, never mind one that brings other intangibles.

If Raymond brought some intangibles that can justify his cold streaks no one would be complaining. The problem is that he's just his tangibles while every other player we have is anything but that (or in the case of Johnny, his tangibles are very consistent).

The point isn't to dwell on the past it's to look at next year. Based on the evidence right now, Raymond is taking up a roster spot and future cap space that could be a significant part of Gaudreau/Monahan/Giordano/Russell/Hudler's inevitible new deals. I think Treliving is even on the same page based on how long he kept Poirier up, how he called Baertschi up near the end, that he doesn't want a guy like Raymond to be a long term issue keeping prospects off the ice. You also see it with Wotherspoon where he's been called up multiple times and hasn't played.

Even if they're not ready, prospects don't get called up to sit in the press box like that while guys like Corey Potter play.

Brad is almost definitely going to make space. We've gotten reliably deep to a point where if we have injuries, our stud prospects just sit around in the pressbox. That's not the kind of depth you want unless you're a cup contender which we're not - you want the depth where your prospects get an opportunity to earn a roster spot cleanly against underperforming veterans. You shouldn't need half your roster depleted to even get a prospect into a game as a rebuilding team.

There's a balance that needs to be struck - not so far in the direction of the Red Wings (who were never in a genuine rebuilding position and are a poor comparision) where Dan Cleary was keeping Gustav Nyquist and Tomas Tatar off a roster just by being healthy and not so far in the direction of the Oilers.

Red Wings fans were right to complain about Dan Cleary's signing because it was just an attempt to delay the inevitible.

[FlameZilla]

Treliving cannot be faulted for picking up the veterans he did in the offseason.

He hardly handcuffed the team with excessively long contracts or big salaries either. Raymond, Bollig, Engelland, Setoguchi, Diaz, Potter and Hiller ensured his team could ice an NHL roster this season.

I guarantee he's thanking his lucky stars that Gaudreau, Jooris, Bouma, Russell and all the other youngsters have played as well as they have. Lots of cap space to operate with, and tonnes of assets. He'll trim some of the fat in the offseason and possibly pick up some blue chips in the process.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Stempniak was coming off an injury riddled 4 goal season, and an 8 goal campaign the year before. And he's 3 years older.

Matthieu Perrault proves my point, not yours - that a guy the same age with roughly the same points is worth about $3M. So does Jussi Jokinen, who made a million more. So does Zuccarello - younger, about the same points, about the same money.

I see in your cherry picking you ignored Stalberg, who was signed the year before and the same age, position and salary. Less points.

So who should Treliving assumed was going to play in the 4 "soft spots"?

Soft spots are relatively easy to fill:

Hudler, Granlund, Gaudreau, Baertschi, Brodie, Rienhart were already in the system. Diaz was added in camp and must have been an option when Raymond was signed. If Butler and/or Derrick Smith were still Flames property or or Billins not in the KHL then Burke probably would not have let Treviling/Hartley sign Diaz.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You will have to be more specific. Based on the evidence at hand when Raymond was signed, what evidence was there that Gaudreau, Jooris, Granlund, Ferland or even Sven would be ready for everyday NHL duty?

None

but if in the 3 years term of Raymond's contract there was nobody better coming up that would be a huge surprise and would be the end of Trevling as a NHL level GM.

These guys get paid well to evaluate talent.

They had seen Gaudreau play against NHL players at the World Championships. Raymond did not have a sample of games over 8 years that compare as well.

There was no doubt amongst the most casual fan that the most Gaudreau would need was 10-20 AHL games.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

It's almost like Treliving had a plan, a strategy if you will, when he only offered UFAs 2-3 year deals in the summer. Coincidentally, by the time those deals expire, our young talent will be signing their next deals. Hopefully the last year of the Engelland and Raymond deals don't throw us into capaggedon but somehow I think we'll make it out without having all our RFAs poached or missing out on too many trade opportunities as a result of this madness.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Stempniak was coming off an injury riddled 4 goal season, and an 8 goal campaign the year before. And he's 3 years older.

Matthieu Perrault proves my point, not yours - that a guy the same age with roughly the same points is worth about $3M. So does Jussi Jokinen, who made a million more. So does Zuccarello - younger, about the same points, about the same money.

I see in your cherry picking you ignored Stalberg, who was signed the year before and the same age, position and salary. Less points.

So who should Treliving assumed was going to play in the 4 "soft spots"?

WHAT!!! Stempniak was coming off a 19 minute/game as a top 6 guy with the Flames where he got traded to the the Pens for their playoff run. He had 12 goalks and 34 pts.... not that far from what mason had. ... the year before he lead the frickin Flames in scoring..


I hated Stempniak as a Flame because having a crappy 3rd line filler like him playing top 6 minutes meant the team had no chance to be better or competitive.

now the Flames are being held back by Raymond. If somehow Raymond is still getting ice time with next years Flames it will be a really really really bad sign..

You honestly don't see the difference in Perreault and Raymond ???? Take a minute or 2 and watch them play a period or 2 of hockey.

>>>>> Sorry I am done here..... Sorry Gioforpm I came to realize you are probably Mr. Raymond's Mom or relative and would not be as brutally frank with you in person..... But then the $20 million USD that Mason has earned over his career must make up for a lot of hurt feelings.

I understand he is a very nice polite guy who is fun to hang around with

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The issue wasn't signing Mason, it was signing him for 3 years. No onr has a problem eith Setoguchi's signing because it gave players opportunity. Coming into the season who was more likely to see NHL time, Josh Jooris or Sven Baertschi/Johnny Gaudreau? Reality is that with the setoguchi signing, our RW depth was something like

Jones
Colborne
Setoguchi
McGrattan

Our C depth was something like
Backlund
Monahan
Stajan
*

While our LW depth (based on the players' success the year before) was something like:
Hudler
Glencross
Byron
Bouma

So where we had a hole was some depth players. Yes, scoring was a concern but trying to put gauze on it was never going to be the solution for what's supposed to be a rebuild. Signings like Setoguchi where if they work out great and if they don't, well there's always next year and hopefully a prospect steps up.

Except that's exactly what you do during a rebuild. Sign some players to be the bandaid who eventually get phased out by the prospects pushing forward.

I suppose the cap floor comes into play, but it doesn't explain the terms remaining on Engelland Raymond etc. Even the Oilers' bad contract Nikitin is only a 2-year deal. Did we really need to convince Engelland to come here?

We were supposed to be bad even with Raymond, but Raymond/Engelland/Bollig weren't the reasons we were actually pretty good. Granlund, Jooris, and Ferland all stepped up early in the season and got us into a good position, when Raymond returned and struggled for the next two months.

And yet the team still played with Granlund and Jooris for majority with Raymond still here. Not particularly an issue with them. Ferland? He's an energetic guy to have on the ice but production wise, Raymond still chips in even if it seems in short and far spurts.

At that point Raymond didn't "become" a bad deal. He was a bad deal from the beginning because it assumed it would take three damn years for one of our prospects to become a 20 goal scorer, never mind one that brings other intangibles.

If Raymond brought some intangibles that can justify his cold streaks no one would be complaining. The problem is that he's just his tangibles while every other player we have is anything but that (or in the case of Johnny, his tangibles are very consistent).

Aside from Gaudreau and Sven who were still question marks, who else would step up to be a 20 goal scorer this year? And then the year after that? The 3rd year you've got a UFA you can move so that's not as big of a concern. Not to mention, those extra years can be considered a security for when other players like Glencross or Hudler potentially get moved. We're looking at almost the best case scenario right now with Bouma producing, Gaudreau exceeding and the rest of the continually stepping it up. Looking at it the other way, it wouldn't be out of the range of probability that we would have been at the bottom of the league, having already moved out Glencross, Hudler and Wideman for addition assets.
Raymond's main tangible was his speed. Unfortunately he's not brought it each and every game which reveals the lack of strengths to be used as an NHL player.

The point isn't to dwell on the past it's to look at next year. Based on the evidence right now, Raymond is taking up a roster spot and future cap space that could be a significant part of Gaudreau/Monahan/Giordano/Russell/Hudler's inevitible new deals. I think Treliving is even on the same page based on how long he kept Poirier up, how he called Baertschi up near the end, that he doesn't want a guy like Raymond to be a long term issue keeping prospects off the ice. You also see it with Wotherspoon where he's been called up multiple times and hasn't played.
Even if they're not ready, prospects don't get called up to sit in the press box like that while guys like Corey Potter play.

Cap space? Not an issue again. Roster spot? He's lining up with Stajan and Bollig on the 4th line. I don't think anybody likes the deal at this point but that's how the year has played out thus far. We can only hope that he bounces back with a better effort next year. The 3rd year does suck to have based on what we've seen so far.

Red Wings fans were right to complain about Dan Cleary's signing because it was just an attempt to delay the inevitible.

Inevitable what? Clearly was no longer much of an NHL player but for some reason kept getting a contract year after year after year. Not quite the same as Raymond who, while extremely disappointing, has done the bare minimum to qualify as a middle 6 guy.

[dino7c]

Calgary needed to add NHL players to the roster and there wasn't too many banging down the door to join the team

[Itse]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

If you are going to pay Monahan, Gaudreau, Brodie and Gio and Wideman 6-8M a year the 3rd liners will have to make 1M /year......

Everything is wrong in this sentence.

First of all, Monahan Gaudreau and Gio do not make 6-8 million.

Brodie is signed for 4.5M until 2020 so I don't see why we would be paying him 6-8M.

Even if Monahan, Gaudreau and Gio did make 6-8 million, we could still afford to pay our 3rd liners 2-2,5M instead of 1M, just like the Minnesota Wild does, despite having Vanek, Parise, Koivu and Suter.

Generally speaking in todays NHL 4th liners make 0.5-1M, 3rd liners make 1.5-3M.

and Raymond is/was a career 3rd liner.

Through the last five seasons his icetime has been on average between 15:35-17:21. Seventeen minutes is low 1st to high 2nd line numbers. Guys like Marian Gaborik Mats Zuccarello and Rick Nash are 17 minute players. (And Johnny Gaudreau.)

15 and change is low 2nd to high 3rd line numbers. (Comparisons: Jarret Stoll (6g 9a, 3.25M), Andrew Cogliano (13g, 12a, 3M)).

Raymonds contract is very normal for a player of his age and production, and he will be an easy trade if/when the need arises. This season he's 4th in goals scored per game on our roster. (Raymond has 12 goals in 48gp, closest below him is Jones with 13 in 59.)

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Calgary needed to add NHL players to the roster and there wasn't too many banging down the door to join the team

And that's the thing with pretty much all free agent signings, sometimes re-signings. How often do you hear/think "one year too long" or "a little more expensive than I would have thought". At some point you're going to have to accept that the contract world isn't going to go perfectly for teams.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

WHAT!!! Stempniak was coming off a 19 minute/game as a top 6 guy with the Flames where he got traded to the the Pens for their playoff run. He had 12 goalks and 34 pts.... not that far from what mason had. ... the year before he lead the frickin Flames in scoring..


I hated Stempniak as a Flame because having a crappy 3rd line filler like him playing top 6 minutes meant the team had no chance to be better or competitive.

now the Flames are being held back by Raymond. If somehow Raymond is still getting ice time with next years Flames it will be a really really really bad sign..

You honestly don't see the difference in Perreault and Raymond ???? Take a minute or 2 and watch them play a period or 2 of hockey.

>>>>> Sorry I am done here..... Sorry Gioforpm I came to realize you are probably Mr. Raymond's Mom or relative and would not be as brutally frank with you in person..... But then the $20 million USD that Mason has earned over his career must make up for a lot of hurt feelings.

I understand he is a very nice polite guy who is fun to hang around with

I know the internet is a very big place... but the chances that - anywhere - there is someone this clueless who seems to regard themselves as a astute authority have got to be pretty remote.

It's at the point where there are no words left.

[Yorkshire Flame]

Tbh, I just don't like his face. If that isn't a good enough reason to not want someone to play for your Hockey team, then I'll be damned if I know what is!

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Itse

Everything is wrong in this sentence.

First of all, Monahan Gaudreau and Gio do not make 6-8 million.

Brodie is signed for 4.5M until 2020 so I don't see why we would be paying him 6-8M.

Even if Monahan, Gaudreau and Gio did make 6-8 million, we could still afford to pay our 3rd liners 2-2,5M instead of 1M, just like the Minnesota Wild does, despite having Vanek, Parise, Koivu and Suter.

Generally speaking in todays NHL 4th liners make 0.5-1M, 3rd liners make 1.5-3M.

Minnesota has around 17M in cap space for next year

Their #6 and #7 forwards Cooke 2.5 and Nino Niederreiter at 2.667

They only have 9 forwards in all Fontaine 1M and Zucker at .9M

They only have 5 D-men in this list.

Dubnyk is a UFA.

so they need 4 more forwards and 3 more D-men and a #1 goalie.

If they are able to sign their MVP Dubynk for 6M that leaves 11M for 7 players.

Diaz and Potter are making 700k coming off of tryout contracts... pretty much the effective league minimum.

Their 3rd and 4th line and spare forward AND 6-8 d-men will be making an average of less than 1.5M

They will NOT be signing Raymond for 3M.

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Minnesota has around 17M in cap space for next year

Their #6 and #7 forwards Cooke 2.5 and Nino Niederreiter at 2.667

They only have 9 forwards in all Fontaine 1M and Zucker at .9M

They only have 5 D-men in this list.

Dubnyk is a UFA.

so they need 4 more forwards and 3 more D-men and a #1 goalie.

If they are able to sign their MVP Dubynk for 6M that leaves 11M for 7 players.

Diaz and Potter are making 700k coming off of tryout contracts... pretty much the effective league minimum.

Their 3rd and 4th line and spare forward AND 6-8 d-men will be making an average of less than 1.5M

They will NOT be signing Raymond for 3M.

And how is this relevant? You're assuming they'll have caphits of 7.5, 6.75, 6.5, 7.5 and 6.0 for 3 wingers, 1 center, 1 defenseman and 1 goalie (who won't get a contract even close to that). Terrible example.

Edit: Didn't see you were responding to Itse's example of Minnesota. Still stands that just because Minnesota can't afford to pay for 3rd liners at 3M doesn't mean that isn't the case.

[GioforPM]

I afraid some people don't understand that the time to judge Treliving's UFA signings is at the time they were made, and what he was looking at as far as the team he had and the player he was considering.

At the time the Flames had a total of Glencross, Jones, Bouma, Hudler and maybe Byron as regular proven NHL calibre wingers (I think he'd made his mind up about McGrattan's place by then). He might have thought Sven would make the team as well. Colborne he might put on the wing.

He had 7 NHL games Granlund. One game Gaudreau. No games Jooris and Ferland. He'd seen Ferland struggle in the minors, Jooris had 27 points in 78 AHL games, Johnny was a pint sized 4th round pick college guy. Poirier was hurt, and then they also had guys like Hanowski, Reinhart, etc who were not, and are not NHLers. All of those guys probably you'd guess at 2 years to develop into regulars.

So faced with that he shouldn't have signed a guy who averages something like an 18-20 goal pace at market price to 3 year deal? As well as Bollig and Setoguchi on evern better deals?

[GreenLantern2814]

Raymond is a 28 year old UFA 20 goal scorer. He's on pace for 20.5 goals over 82 games. It's rare you get exactly what you're expecting from a UFA signing - Mason Raymond is who we thought he was. And there's nothing wrong with that.

He'll be replaced in a year or two and relegated to a 4th line 13th forward role in the last year of his deal before he's traded at the deadline as the roster player throw-in when we acquire our rental defenseman.

[HOWITZER]

This whole thread right now...



What in the world is going on.

[Red John]

Although Ricardo's inane ramblings are like the musings of a madman, there is one point he's made that is probably salient.

That's the fact that you can't have too many guys like Raymond on your team. He is a soft player that outside of his speed and ability to forecheck, doesn't bring much. However, it's important to have players on a team that bring different skillsets as it keeps you from getting predictable. Could you imagine 12 of the exact same forward on a team?

As a coach it would actually be easy to gameplan and shut that group down because every line would play the exact same way, make the same decisions with the puck, etc. The minute you are predictable you become easy to beat.

So although guys like Raymond, or Linden Vey in Vancouver for example, are easy to hate on, it's actually valuable to have them around as a chance of pace type that keeps your team versatile and slightly unpredictable.

On top of that, Raymond does have an offensive history with a 50-point season under his belt and is a streaky guy who could literally prop the Flames up offensively with one of his hot streaks at the right time. All it takes is 3-4 hot games and his offense could win you a playoff series when the rest of the team might be shut down or gone cold.

$3 million a year is basically the equivalent of like $1.7 million at the start of the salary cap era so you really aren't being hampered by the contract. It's like 3% of the team cap which is pretty reasonable for a 3rd line guy who can skate, forecheck, create chances with speed and move up to the 2nd line during a hot streak and get his points.