[Signing] Flames sign Mason Raymond (3yrs, $3.15mil AAV, modified NTC)

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Stajan and Raymond are in the same boat. To many younger players who make less money that have more potential are NHL ready to take their spots. Treviling should do whatever it takes to move both of these guys as they are no longer needed

Really bizarre quote about Stajan. He's been rock solid as our 4th line centre. Brings faceoff ability and some offense to the bottom line. Hartley loves him in this role.

Why would we do "whatever it takes" to move a depth piece like that? Sounds like you haven't watched Stajan at all this season.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I'm failing to understand the issue with the clutter of forwards though? Who cares, other than the owners and the impact to their pocket books? This organisation has proven it will move the vets out when the prospects prove they've earned the spots, so not sure why anyone other than the Flames accountant has any concerns about this.

Because you risk letting guys go by not qualifying them or to waivers. Guy that can legitimately help the team.

Assuming our top 6 wingers (Bouma/Gaudreau/Hudler/JOnes) stay pat, and Stajan stays pace and Bennett/Backlund/Monahan/Stajan is our center situation, that means we've got 4 spots avaialable and another 2 bodies for the press box.

Let's assume we send down Granlund and Poirier because we can, and likewise Bill Arnold stays down because we can.

We have to choose six of the following:

Raymond
Bollig
Byron
Colborne
Ferland
Jooris
Shore
Wolf

Long term, two have to be let go or be put on waivers. You can talk all you want about Wolf being unproven or Byron being small but at the end of the day I'm not convinced they've shown less than Raymond has, or even Bollig despite his recent stretch of games thanks in strong part to the effectiveness of Stajan and the Schlemko/Diaz pairings.

Is keeping these guys around the prudent move based on their potential to contribute? To me it seems like one dictated by contract situation - Hartley doesn't want to keep pushing buttons with veteran guys who are locked up for two years and knows he can get away with sitting rookies, but that doesn't mean Hartley has no confidence in the younger options.

You can let Wolf or Byron go, but they're both more versatile players that can seriously contribute. I don't think either has been a dud for us. Or do you give up on Colborne and Shore? Ferland and Jooris?

Don't get me wrong, I'd be shocked if based on what he saw this year he feels as much need as he did last year to bring in warm bodies to fill in the line up, but all of the players you put above in brackets have not been bucked from their spots this year so why worry about it until it happens.

Because it might cost the team wins.

[Azure]

At this point Stajan is more effective than Colborne.

He is filling the role as a veteran 4th line center that can provide a bit of offense perfectly.

[Itse]

This thread is full of arguments that make no sense to me.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Because you risk letting guys go by not qualifying them or to waivers. Guy that can legitimately help the team.

So you're suggesting we get rid of some of these guys now?
Because you fear we might have to get rid of them later?

Just generally I really don't see what you're getting at. Why would we not qualify the players that need qualifying? And what does the risk of losing a good player to waivers have to do with having too many players?

If we lost a player then by definition:
a) He was somewhere below 12th on our depth chart, or in other words not important
b) He was better than 12th on our depth chart, but we lost him because we misjudged talent.

The amount of forwards has nothing to do with it.

Assuming our top 6 wingers (Bouma/Gaudreau/Hudler/JOnes) stay pat and Stajan stays pace and Bennett/Backlund/Monahan/Stajan is our center situation, that means we've got 4 spots avaialable and another 2 bodies for the press box.

That's just a whole lot of assumptions. Bouma is far from securing a top 6 position. He hasn't even had one full season at that position. Jones is 2nd/3rd line forward according to needs.

Also, are you sure Stajan is going to be our 4th center when both Jooris and Granlund have played more minutes on average?

We have to choose six of the following:

Raymond
Bollig
Byron
Colborne
Ferland
Jooris
Shore
Wolf

Long term, two have to be let go or be put on waivers.

Why are Granlund, Stajan and Jones not on that list but Colborne is, even though Colborne has played more minutes per game than any of them?

More importanly, what does this have to do with anything right now? Most of those guys have played a whole bunch of games this season so clearly they we've had a use for them.

Originally Posted by Red Menace

I like Stajan to an extent, but paying your 4th line C $3.5 million is awful cap management, regardless if you can afford it or not.

Those two things are literally mutually exclusive. If you can afford it then by definition it is not awful cap management. The cap is a team number, it is not calculated by player.

In general, we have the cheapest team in the NHL and we're very close to pushing the reigning cup champions out of a playoff spot, and you still want to complain about our cap management? You're not asking much are you?

Originally Posted by Fire

My concern is not with the money these guys (Stajan, Raymond, Bollig, Jones) are being paid, but the clutter of forwards the Flames are going to have next season. I count 16 forwards that could easily be on the NHL roster next season. If Poirier needs more time in the AHL then that drops to 15.

15-16 forwards is not clutter, it's depth. It's what you want. This season 14 forwards have played 40 or more games, plus another 9 forwards have combined for another 75 man-games. That's a total of 23 forwards used.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Because you risk letting guys go by not qualifying them or to waivers. Guy that can legitimately help the team.

Assuming our top 6 wingers (Bouma/Gaudreau/Hudler/JOnes) stay pat, and Stajan stays pace and Bennett/Backlund/Monahan/Stajan is our center situation, that means we've got 4 spots avaialable and another 2 bodies for the press box.

Let's assume we send down Granlund and Poirier because we can, and likewise Bill Arnold stays down because we can.

We have to choose six of the following:

Raymond
Bollig
Byron
Colborne
Ferland
Jooris
Shore
Wolf

Long term, two have to be let go or be put on waivers. You can talk all you want about Wolf being unproven or Byron being small but at the end of the day I'm not convinced they've shown less than Raymond has, or even Bollig despite his recent stretch of games thanks in strong part to the effectiveness of Stajan and the Schlemko/Diaz pairings.

Is keeping these guys around the prudent move based on their potential to contribute? To me it seems like one dictated by contract situation - Hartley doesn't want to keep pushing buttons with veteran guys who are locked up for two years and knows he can get away with sitting rookies, but that doesn't mean Hartley has no confidence in the younger options.

You can let Wolf or Byron go, but they're both more versatile players that can seriously contribute. I don't think either has been a dud for us. Or do you give up on Colborne and Shore? Ferland and Jooris?



Because it might cost the team wins.

Who is at risk of not being qualified? Who cares if we lose a veteran player on waivers, and who's a waiver risk next season?

How does it cost them wins if the young players aren't better yet?

Look at Raymond's stats for the past 3 years, then tell me again he hasn't proven more. He's proven a lot more.

All your arguments are Red Herrings. They aren't real, they aren't actual concerns at this point, and when they become them, then the Flames simply have to the right thing in that moment, they don't need to make room in advance, this is literally something they can deal with in real time.

None of your arguments are real, they are simply fake fears from a fan who wants to fill his starting line up card with young players. The Flames currently are not at risk of not being able to qualify young players or lose them to waiver wires. Worry about that #### when it's actually a worry, not way in advance of it. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of planning around winning the lottery. All this concern around oh no, we have too many players, blah blah. Unless it stops us from signing someone we want to sign cause we don't have enough pro-contract space, it's not a real thing.

[GioforPM]

You can talk all you want about Wolf being unproven or Byron being small but at the end of the day I'm not convinced they've shown less than Raymond has, or even Bollig despite his recent stretch of games thanks in strong part to the effectiveness of Stajan and the Schlemko/Diaz pairings.

You can argue Byron v. Raymond all you want because they are apples and oranges players. In pure prioduction, Raymond is ahead, both in track record and this year.

But Wolf has proven more? Now you are stretching. Wolf is an interesting player for his size and aggression, but he's already 25, not as skilled, a liability defensively and a poor skater.

[FlameZilla]

I expect Bennett to start next season on the wing, as we have loads of centre depth. His game really suits the wing, and much like Mackinnon broke into the NHL (mainly) on the flanks before moving to pivot I believe our Sam will do the same.

With that in mind, it's safe to pencil Bennett in on the 2nd line with Backlund & (probably) Jones.

This pushes Bouma down to the 3rd line, where he will be joined by 2 of Jooris, Granlund, Colborne or Byron.

Raymond's career prospects with the Flames are pretty bleak. He could "provide scoring" from the 4th line with Stajan & Bollig/Ferland/Shore/Wolf but IMO I'd rather have a younger energy player there. Honestly I could see either of both of Stajan & Raymond traded at the draft or in the preseason.

I firmly believe Treliving signed Raymond & traded for Bollig simply because he couldn't be sure of how NHL-ready the Flames strong crop of prospects was when he took over. It's a sensible insurance policy to have some cheapish veterans to fall back on if Plan A doesn't work out. As it happens, the kids were ready and have taken over the team. Raymond is surplus to requirements, but provides some depth.

I doubt the team would miss a beat if Raymond & Stajan are moved at the Draft. There are at least a half-dozen NHL-ready prospects (Granlund, Shore, Ferland, Wolf, Poirier, Arnold etc etc) chomping at the bit to replace them.

[ricardodw]

It is interesting that panic UFA signings fail so miserably.

Raymond was signed because Cammalleri turned down the Flames last offer and the Flames had no confidence in Gaudreau playing at the NHL level. IN retrospect signing Setogouchi was done for the same reason and was a much better long term move.


The other Panic signing was Feaster signing Babchuck because he traded away Regehr , Pardy walking as a UFA. The Flames had no confidence in Brodie stepping up and putting Babchuck into healthy scratch status.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

It is interesting that panic UFA signings fail so miserably.

Raymond was signed because Cammalleri turned down the Flames last offer and the Flames had no confidence in Gaudreau playing at the NHL level. IN retrospect signing Setogouchi was done for the same reason and was a much better long term move.

I don't think signing a 29 year old 20 goal scorer to a $3M contract is a panic move.

UFAs cost money. What other UFAs were signed at that time who would have been a better deal (barring surprises like if someone signed a Bouma to a small deal and he scored like he's doing)? I bet there were a bunch of teams at the same price point on Raymond and he signed here for opportunity and location.

[Red Menace]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't think signing a 29 year old 20 goal scorer to a $3M contract is a panic move.

UFAs cost money. What other UFAs were signed at that time who would have been a better deal (barring surprises like if someone signed a Bouma to a small deal and he scored like he's doing)? I bet there were a bunch of teams at the same price point on Raymond and he signed here for opportunity and location.

I think the point is (for me anyway) that we shouldn't have signed any UFA forward last summer. To me we had plenty of viable candidates on the farm, we didn't have to "give" the spot to one of them, but certainly they could have fought it out for a spot amongst themselves.
Instead we gave that time to Seto (albeit only for 12gp), and to Raymond (who granted looked good in week 1).
I think we would have been better served to have the youngsters fill those spots.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

I think the point is (for me anyway) that we shouldn't have signed any UFA forward last summer. To me we had plenty of viable candidates on the farm, we didn't have to "give" the spot to one of them, but certainly they could have fought it out for a spot amongst themselves.
Instead we gave that time to Seto (albeit only for 12gp), and to Raymond (who granted looked good in week 1).
I think we would have been better served to have the youngsters fill those spots.

You don't count on players you believe are going to be in the AHL to replace guys that are NHLers. Who should have been playing over Raymond at the top of the year, out of training camp? Who should have been playing RW over Setoguchi (don't say Sven because he can't play RW - it's been tried and didn't work)?

And when it was time, they did fill those spots. Setoguchi was sat, then waived. Raymond's been scratched. And right now Raymond is playing, and IMO playing better than anyone who'd otherwise take his place. You can't put Wolf in his spot, not has Poirier done enough to merit it. Byron maybe, but not to replace production.

Signing them was not a bad move - it was prudent, given they didn't know what they had in the kids yet. And the pricetag was not out of line for Raymond, if you look at UFA wingers at age 29, espeically 20 goal guys.

Bottom line - I don't get this argument, which is basically - "Oh noes - we have too many NHL calibre forwards".

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

It is interesting that panic UFA signings fail so miserably.

Raymond was signed because Cammalleri turned down the Flames last offer and the Flames had no confidence in Gaudreau playing at the NHL level. IN retrospect signing Setogouchi was done for the same reason and was a much better long term move.


The other Panic signing was Feaster signing Babchuck because he traded away Regehr , Pardy walking as a UFA. The Flames had no confidence in Brodie stepping up and putting Babchuck into healthy scratch status.

Not entirely sure panic is the best way to describe the moves. No one predicted that players like Gaudreau would be this good or even capable of playing in the NHL.

The flames needed to sign a couple UFAs to ensure they had a roster. The other choice would have potentially been pushing kids into the NHL who were not ready, which can destroy development.

So not so much "panic" as taking reasonable actions in the circumstances.

[GioforPM]

Playing a kid because you don't have a viable veteran option at the position, and just hoping he will succeed, sounds familiar. Has any other team we know of done that?

[Red Menace]

I think some of the kids were ready...but I don't want to escalate this into another stupid Sven thread.
I guess we needed to reach the floor, that's about the only justification we had to sign these 2.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

I think some of the kids were ready...but I don't want to escalate this into another stupid Sven thread.
I guess we needed to reach the floor, that's about the only justification we had to sign these 2.

When Raymond was signed, camp hadn't even happened. So saying the kids were ready is ignoring the fact that management hadn't seen them other than the previous AHL season and the few times they played NHL games. And none of them had exactly lit it up. So you think Treliving should have known they were "ready"?

Sven proved he wasn't ready when he was called up. Poirier was on the shelf. Granlund was called up asap anyway. Same with Ferland. That's how you work rookies into the lineup - you don't go into training camp with zero options.

[Red Menace]

My position is that yes Sven was ready, Granlund was ready, Gaudreau was obviously ready...
In additon to having Hudler, Glencross, Jones, Bouma, Byron, Colborne, there was no need to add additional 2nd-3rd line wingers to the group.
That's 9 wingers to fill 6 spots on the top 3 lines....we didn't need to add others....
In any case there's not much to complain about this season....things have going exceedingly well.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

My position is that yes Sven was ready, Granlund was ready, Gaudreau was obviously ready...
In additon to having Hudler, Glencross, Jones, Bouma, Byron, Colborne, there was no need to add additional 2nd-3rd line wingers to the group.
That's 9 wingers to fill 6 spots on the top 3 lines....we didn't need to add others....
In any case there's not much to complain about this season....things have going exceedingly well.

Based on what evidence?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't think signing a 29 year old 20 goal scorer to a $3M contract is a panic move.

UFAs cost money. What other UFAs were signed at that time who would have been a better deal (barring surprises like if someone signed a Bouma to a small deal and he scored like he's doing)? I bet there were a bunch of teams at the same price point on Raymond and he signed here for opportunity and location.

Stempniak signed a 1 year deal at 1M. That what 3rd line NHL fillers go for.

Raymond signed a 1 year deal for 1M the year before.

the NHL is not a socialist collective.... If you are going to pay Monahan, Gaudreau, Brodie and Gio and Wideman 6-8M a year the 3rd liners will have to make 1M /year...... and Raymond is/was a career 3rd liner.

Perreault signed by Winnipeg 9M 3 years... cheaper than Raymond) was a smallish 18 goal scorer on a solid playoff team that plays a lot more like Byron than Raymond..... 69 hits in 58 games this year. 73 hits in 69 games last year with the Ducks.

His last 3 year scoring 40 goals 90 pts was the same as Raymonds (39 goals 95 pts) and he is 2 years younger. He also won 53% of his 800 facesoff with the Ducks.

What I most disliked about the Raymond signing was that he was taking up one of the 4 soft spots that a team can have.

Raymond is not in a scoring competition with Bouma and Jooris and Jones and Glencross who all do other important things.... he needs to score like Hudler, Gaudreau and Tanguay.



ie Perreault could contribute on the 3rd or even 4th line as he is more than a pure scorer like Raymond.


Hudler is making 4M ... he was a top 6 player on a good team

The Flames dumped Tanguay and were forced to take back Jones bad contract. Tanguay plays a similar game to Raymond but much higher level than Raymond. Tanguay was overpayed at 3.5M

To say that Raymond is or every was a value at 3.125M is absurd. Never mind the 3 year deal.

[Red Menace]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Based on what evidence?

Empirical

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

Empirical

You will have to be more specific. Based on the evidence at hand when Raymond was signed, what evidence was there that Gaudreau, Jooris, Granlund, Ferland or even Sven would be ready for everyday NHL duty?