Why Leaving Canada Makes Sense for Alberta

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

I think fixing the broken equalization program would be a much more likely and desirable outcome to address the current reality. However we shouldn't forget that a misguided wealth grab from the east was what stoked original Alberta Separation idea and surely another such attempt isn't out of the question for the future.

Uh, the federal equalization program was set up in 1957. Decades before Alberta's energy boom, and decades before Alberta separation became a thing.

Also, if it's an eastern conspiracy, it's weird that Ontario taxpayers have paid the most into the program.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by polak

I'd be choked if it happened but I'm not sure if I'd move. I would have to see the results and consequent fall out. What happened with work, my friends and family...etc before I made my choice.

I love being Canadian but not more than the life I've built in Calgary. Uprooting and moving some place where I don't know anyone would not be worth being able to say "I'm from Canada".

"I'm from Calgary" would do.

It's very unlikely to happen in our lifetime but if it did I surely wouldn't move to another province as Canada without Alberta would be in a world of hurt as taxes and fuel prices would skyrocket. I would see how Alberta wages would change going to US currency and possibly look at moving to a southern climate. I have no issues with becoming American because it won't change the who I am or how I live my life.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Uh, the federal equalization program was set up in 1957. Decades before Alberta's energy boom, and decades before Alberta separation became a thing.

Also, if it's an eastern conspiracy, it's weird that Ontario taxpayers have paid the most into the program.

You're right, maybe another program could have been responsible for people considering separation?

The equalization program probably works even worse for Ontario than it does for Alberta. Regardless of that, how much more have Ontario taxpayers paid on a per capita basis?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's very unlikely to happen in our lifetime but if it did I surely wouldn't move to another province as Canada without Alberta would be in a world of hurt as taxes and fuel prices would skyrocket.

Alberta oil would still be sold on the global market. Why would fuel prices be any cheaper in an American or independent Alberta than in the rest of Canada? As for taxes 'skyrocketing', I think you vastly overestimate how much provincial coffers in the rest of Canada benefit from transfer payments.

Probably the biggest advantage Alberta has is its young population relative to places like Manitoba and New Brunswick. Still, there's no guarantee fossil fuels will continue to drive a strong economy in this province in the long-term. Commodity booms don't last forever.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

You're right, maybe another program could have been responsible for people considering separation?

The NEP? Bad policy. But it was also followed by a global crash in oil prices - something that Alberta demagogues seem to forget. If the downturn of the 80s was caused by the NEP, why did the economy in Texas go into a tailspin at the same time? Remarkable coincidence.

The NEP bogeyman is the best example of the incredible rationalizations people in this province will engage in to avoid facing the reality that our security and livelihoods are tethered to the price of a commodity that we have no control over. It's like primitive man convincing himself droughts and earthquakes are caused by angry gods. It's more comforting than facing the reality that catastrophes often happen for no reason.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The NEP? Bad policy. But it was also followed by a global crash in oil prices - something that Alberta demagogues seem to forget. If the downturn of the 80s was caused by the NEP, why did the economy in Texas go into a tailspin at the same time? Remarkable coincidence.

The NEP bogeyman is the best example of the incredible rationalizations people in this province will engage in to avoid facing the reality that our security and livelihoods are tethered to the price of a commodity that we have no control over. It's like primitive man convincing himself droughts and earthquakes are caused by angry gods. It's more comforting than facing the reality that catastrophes often happen for no reason.

So what was bad about the NEP if it was only a 'bogeyman'? You've contradicted yourself.

[CliffFletcher]

It was bad policy. It hurt Alberta. But a lot of people associate the entire 80s price collapse and decade-long downturn in the industry to the NEP. The price of oil would have collapsed, NEP or no NEP. The economy in Alberta would have tanked, with or without the NEP. Did the NEP give it a nudge in the wrong direction? Yes. But people who are still blaming the NEP for their mortgage being underwater in 1986 are just looking for someone to blame for a global commodity swing that was beyond anyone's control.

I think the downturn we're in now will be a long one, and I'm waiting to see who the myth-makers will blame this one on. The Saudis? Justin Trudeau if he become prime minister? Environmentalists? It will be someone. Because, you know, the global price of oil doesn't just go into the tank - there must be some villain behind the scenes trying to ruin things for Albertans.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It was bad policy. It hurt Alberta. But a lot of people associate the entire 80s price collapse and decade-long downturn in the industry to the NEP. The price of oil would have collapsed, NEP or no NEP. The economy in Alberta would have tanked, with or without the NEP. Did the NEP give it a nudge in the wrong direction? Yes. But people who are still blaming the NEP for their mortgage being underwater in 1986 are just looking for someone to blame for a global commodity swing that was beyond anyone's control.

I think the downturn we're in now will be a long one, and I'm waiting to see who the myth-makers will blame this one on. The Saudis? Justin Trudeau if he become prime minister? Environmentalists? It will be someone. Because, you know, the global price of oil doesn't just go into the tank - there must be some villain behind the scenes trying to ruin things for Albertans.

Who should the people who's mortgages collapsed in 1980-1984 blame; when Alberta's real estate market crashed far worse than any other place in North America and when oil was at an all time high? The NEP was a terrible policy that cleaved 50-100 billion dollars directly from Alberta for the sole benefit of Eastern Canada when oil prices were at an all time peak. That's some "nudge".

Pretending that the commodity crash of 1985 somehow means the effects of NEP policy should be ignored doesn't make any sense at all.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Love it or leave. How very American.

So is wanting to join America. whats your point?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The NEP? Bad policy. But it was also followed by a global crash in oil prices - something that Alberta demagogues seem to forget. If the downturn of the 80s was caused by the NEP, why did the economy in Texas go into a tailspin at the same time? Remarkable coincidence.

The NEP bogeyman is the best example of the incredible rationalizations people in this province will engage in to avoid facing the reality that our security and livelihoods are tethered to the price of a commodity that we have no control over. It's like primitive man convincing himself droughts and earthquakes are caused by angry gods. It's more comforting than facing the reality that catastrophes often happen for no reason.

the NEP isn't just remembered because it was a bad policy, It was remembered because it was a vindictive policy put in place by Trudeau because he strongly disliked this province because they didn't think the way that he thought.

And yes we would have had the Oil crisis of the late 80's, but at the time, Alberta was in a position to strengthen its economy and Trudeau decided to punish this province.

People remember the NEP and Trudeau less then fondly because it was basically a punch to the balls by a jerk and his lap dog (Marc Lalonde)

And as much as you want to deny it while the later energy crisis was destructive. The NEP destroyed lives for no reason and no logic.

[Doodlebug]

Interesting segment on the National last night, comparing Norway to Alberta.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/ID/2660330407/

Shameful what has happened to the Heritage Trust Fund.....

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

the NEP isn't just remembered because it was a bad policy, It was remembered because it was a vindictive policy put in place by Trudeau because he strongly disliked this province because they didn't think the way that he thought.

And yes we would have had the Oil crisis of the late 80's, but at the time, Alberta was in a position to strengthen its economy and Trudeau decided to punish this province.

People remember the NEP and Trudeau less then fondly because it was basically a punch to the balls by a jerk and his lap dog (Marc Lalonde)

And as much as you want to deny it while the later energy crisis was destructive. The NEP destroyed lives for no reason and no logic.

I don't disagree with any of that. But a great many people in this province regard the entire downturn of the 80s as 'the NEP.' And that's not healthy. We need to come to terms with the cyclical nature of the energy industry. Every time there is a boom we pretend it will never end. When it ends we run around looking for people to blame. It's short-sighted, delusional, and prevents us from developing rational, long-term policies in this province.

[Daradon]

Rabble rabble!

The weirdest part of this is I'm trying to figure out why the OP posted it in the first place. Such a troll post. But not a troll guy. So weird. Totally thought it was killer_carlson then I saw the post name.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Rabble rabble!

The weirdest part of this is I'm trying to figure out why the OP posted it in the first place. Such a troll post. But not a troll guy. So weird. Totally thought it was killer_carlson then I saw the post name.

Pardon me?

Pot. Meet kettle.