[Signing] Flames sign Mason Raymond (3yrs, $3.15mil AAV, modified NTC)

[Calgary4LIfe]

I would argue that Raymond is exactly meeting expectations. Provides speed and depth scoring. He has always been and will probably always be a streaky scorer. When he is scoring in bunches, we all think how great he is to have on the team, and when he isn't, he becomes the big whipping boy. I don't think he has done anything above my expectations, or below them.

I do, however, think that local kids playing on the team have it a bit tougher. Much more pressure, and your name can become mud during the dry spells. I think that is one of the reasons it is rumored that Mike Green is not interested in playing in Calgary for instance. It is a tough thing to do, and I would imagine it would also be tough on your family and friends.

Raymond is here for another 2 seasons. By then - unless he magically improves his all-around game - he will be pushed out by other players coming up through the system. He is a depth scoring placeholder at the moment. Nothing more, nothing less. I guess that is why I don't get too bothered by him. I just wish Hartley didn't throw him out on the PP as much as he does - one of the few instances (maybe the only?) that I don't quite agree with what Hartley is doing.

This might be the first season in a long time where I don't think I hate anyone on the team, or think that there is a 'problem' player of sorts, or even just wished someone off the team. I wasn't a fan of the Raymond signing to start with, so perhaps my expectations were lower than other people on here, and explains why I am not really bothered by him?

[GioforPM]

^^^ This is exactly what I think as well. Not high expectations, scores in streaks just like in TO.

[Red Menace]

One thing I am 100% convinced of, if Sven was given 2:15 of PP time per game, he would have outproduced Raymond quite easily (and would probably still be a Flame).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

One thing I am 100% convinced of, if Sven was given 2:15 of PP time per game, he would have outproduced Raymond quite easily (and would probably still be a Flame).

LOL. Leaving Raymond aside (especially since they rarely played at the same time), there was no reason to give Sven any PP time. Glencross was on the etam then, remember.

And "give" is the key word, too.

ETA: I imagine Hartley thinks Raymond can score. He does have the 4th highest GPG on the team.

[GranteedEV]

All I know is, if Sven Baertschi OR Curtis Glencross had no place on this team, then neither does Mason Raymond. I fully agree Raymond is a streaky scorer but there's no need to exercize patience with him when we have a flood of guys deserving of that spot.

I just find it hard based on the eye test to see how Ferland, Granlund, Wolf or Poirier don't deserve that 3rd line wing spot. I'm trying really hard to see it but considering our 4th line (with CP Whipping Boy Brandon Bollig!!!!) has been more effective than our 3rd line for a while now (about since Raymond and Stajan returned)...

Originally Posted by GioforPM

And "give" is the key word, too.

Yes, which is why we're frustrated to see Raymond on the PP. He's "given" PP minutes that he does zilch with. At least Sven deserves to be given those PP minutes as he is a better playmaker with space to operate. And I don't think even you would argue Sven isn't a better playmaker than Raymond.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

All I know is, if Sven Baertschi OR Curtis Glencross had no place on this team, then neither does Mason Raymond. I fully agree Raymond is a streaky scorer but there's no need to exercize patience with him when we have a flood of guys deserving of that spot.

I just find it hard based on the eye test to see how Ferland, Granlund, Wolf or Poirier don't deserve that 3rd line wing spot. I'm trying really hard to see it but considering our 4th line (with CP Whipping Boy Brandon Bollig!!!!) has been more effective than our 3rd line for a while now (about since Raymond and Stajan returned)...



Yes, which is why we're frustrated to see Raymond on the PP. He's "given" PP minutes that he does zilch with. At least Sven deserves to be given those PP minutes as he is a better playmaker with space to operate. And I don't think even you would argue Sven isn't a better playmaker than Raymond.

Visually you may like Wolf, Poirier or Granlund, but none of those players have shown full time NHL play yet. Wolf was energetic, but his skating and position was not there. Poirier struggled IMO, like most rookies. Granlund was just as streaky as Raymond, with less production.

On the PP I'd argue that Raymond is a better goal scorer and that Backlund is a better playmaker, which includes retrieving and controlling the puck. Which is how the 2nd unit is set up.

[opendoor]

It shouldn't be too surprising that Raymond's production is dropping off as the season goes on. Here's his career scoring pace prior to this season split into different parts of the season:

Oct-Dec: 50 pts/82 games

Jan-Apr: 34 pts/82 games

Playoffs: 27 pts/82 games

Doesn't mean he's a bad player or poor value, but he has always been a hot starter whose production tends to drop later in the season.

[hackamore]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

One thing I am 100% convinced of, if Sven was given 2:15 of PP time per game, he would have outproduced Raymond quite easily (and would probably still be a Flame).

This by far has been the worst year Raymond has had on special teams. Not sure if it is all on him, the system not fitting his style, wrong combination of linemates, or just one of those crappy unexplained situations. No one knows what Sven will do yet until he does it, but Raymond has a track record of being a decent PP/pk player until this year.

[Red Menace]

Originally Posted by opendoor

It shouldn't be too surprising that Raymond's production is dropping off as the season goes on. Here's his career scoring pace prior to this season split into different parts of the season:

Oct-Dec: 50 pts/82 games

Jan-Apr: 34 pts/82 games

Playoffs: 27 pts/82 games

Doesn't mean he's a bad player or poor value, but he has always been a hot starter whose production tends to drop later in the season.

It doesn't?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

It doesn't?

No it doesn't. He's a 35-45 point player who is competent defensively. He's not amazing or anything, but he's a low end 2nd liner (or high end 3rd liner) and that's about what you get for around $3M on the UFA market these days.

[Red Menace]

Originally Posted by opendoor

No it doesn't. He's a 35-45 point player who is competent defensively. He's not amazing or anything, but he's a low end 2nd liner (or high end 3rd liner) and that's about what you get for around $3M on the UFA market these days.

I don't disagree with you, but just feel we had better options waiting in the wings, and despite longs stretches of sub-par play he was continually "given" ice time that I don't think he earned.

Don't get me wrong, I am cheering for him to succeed.

[neo45]

Byron also plays with an edge, where as Raymond is one of the league's softer players. When Byron is cold he isn't completely useless out there, but he also won't go on a hot streak like Raymond will

[saillias]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Which is how the 2nd unit is set up.

The 2nd PP unit is a motley crew of 3rd liners playing hot potato.

[jemjey]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I would argue that Raymond is exactly meeting expectations. Provides speed and depth scoring. He has always been and will probably always be a streaky scorer. When he is scoring in bunches, we all think how great he is to have on the team, and when he isn't, he becomes the big whipping boy. I don't think he has done anything above my expectations, or below them.

I do, however, think that local kids playing on the team have it a bit tougher. Much more pressure, and your name can become mud during the dry spells. I think that is one of the reasons it is rumored that Mike Green is not interested in playing in Calgary for instance. It is a tough thing to do, and I would imagine it would also be tough on your family and friends.

Raymond is here for another 2 seasons. By then - unless he magically improves his all-around game - he will be pushed out by other players coming up through the system. He is a depth scoring placeholder at the moment. Nothing more, nothing less. I guess that is why I don't get too bothered by him. I just wish Hartley didn't throw him out on the PP as much as he does - one of the few instances (maybe the only?) that I don't quite agree with what Hartley is doing.

This might be the first season in a long time where I don't think I hate anyone on the team, or think that there is a 'problem' player of sorts, or even just wished someone off the team. I wasn't a fan of the Raymond signing to start with, so perhaps my expectations were lower than other people on here, and explains why I am not really bothered by him?

This.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by neo45

he also won't go on a hot streak like Raymond will

Byron had a streak of 4 goals in 4 games this season, and I thought he finished last season pretty strong too albeit not a "streak" but he pitched in 5 goals and 5 assists in the final 17 games. He can get warm. He brings a lot more on the ice than just points though, whereas Raymond brings pretty much nothing if he's not on the stat sheet.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by saillias

The 2nd PP unit is a motley crew of 3rd liners playing hot potato.

I don't disagree, it's not a dangerous second unit. My point was that Raymond isn't the playmaker on that second unit - he's the shooter (FWIW).

To EV - you do realize a Glencross who wasn't a pending UFA who they couldn't come to terms with would easily have a spot on this team, right? It's not that there wasn't room for him.

And that Baertschi didn't have a spot on the wing not because of Raymond, but because Glencross, Raymond, Gaudreau, Granlund, Jooris, Ferland, Jones, Poirier, Colborne, Hudler, Bouma, Byron, Shore, Bollig. That's 14 wings or centre/wings when there's room for 8 or 9. And Sven didn't outplay a single one of them.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

One thing I am 100% convinced of, if Sven was given 2:15 of PP time per game, he would have outproduced Raymond quite easily (and would probably still be a Flame).

Here is the loop I think that people fixate on.

IF Baertschi was given a chance then he would produce and still be playing for the Flames.

Let's break this argument down into 3 steps:

If Baertschi was given a chance: I will argue that he was given more than a fair chance, and was the beneficiary of a few unearned call-ups probably due to his draft pedigree. Does the chance include PP time and top 6 minutes? Why should it require those 2 factors for it to be 'fair'. It would be 'unfair' to the rest of the team, no?

then he would produce: Do people really believe that Hartley and/or management are morons? Don't people realize for a second that Hartley and/or management KNOW that giving a player 3/4th line minutes and no PP time would result in not many points? So, if Hartley, Treliving, Conroy, Pascal, Huska, Burke, King and the ownership group all know (just like the rest of us mere fans) that slotting Sven this way would result in a lack of production, then why do people suppose this happened? Could it be that everyone and their dog knows that given a chance, Baertschi can produce? Could it be that offence was NOT what they were looking for to begin with? Could it be that what Burke spoke about - effort in every zone and every shift, and play in the defensive zone - were the areas that the Flames NEEDED to see improvement on? Makes sense to me. I don't for a second think that the Flames treated Sven unfairly and put him in a position to fail intentionally. What on earth would the Flames gain from doing so?

and still be playing for the Flames: Again, offence was never the question. If Baertschi competed as hard as Gaudreau does, and showed as much effort as Gaudreau does, and won as many puck-battles as Gaudreau does, or back-checks as hard as Gaudreau does, then he would still be a Flame. If Gaudreau can (and does) do all of these things with less professional experience and less physical strength, then why couldn't Baertschi?

I don't think this organization had any questions about Baertschi's ability to produce offensively. I don't think that is what he was being graded on at all. I think from the comments that came out over the years that it was his compete level first and foremost in all zones. Baertschi usually got his ice-time elevated (especially in the first 2 seasons) when he did so, and got demoted when he didn't.

Then again, who knows? Maybe everyone in the Flames organization are just complete morons scratching their heads and thinking Baertschi is a bust just because he wasn't able to score on the 4th line with reduced minutes. Maybe they are just getting lucky with Gaudreau, Jooris, etc?

It seems that everyone who seems really upset about this are upset because they think Baertschi didn't get a fair shake. I have yet to see one single shred of sound logic in proving that theory. I think it is very safe to say that the Flames are NOT interested in having players that are very one-dimensional. Everyone has to buy-into their style of play. That is part of creating an identity. That is part of success.

I wonder how many people who are so upset that Calgary traded away Baertschi were also upset about the Flames trading away Tanguay. They seem to mirror one another in a couple of ways if you ask me.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Sven has a long way to go before he's even close to a Raymond value player. Sven hasn't even proved he belongs in the NHL on a regular basis yet, let alone that he's close to the player Raymond is, regardless of what Sven was GIVEN or not.

Not even sure how this is a topic of discussion. Hilarious what a couple of prospects that work out will do to a fan base (Monahan and Gaudreau), all of a sudden it's just combing the line up for players over the age of 25 to replace with flavour of the month down on the farm. People are going to need to check themselves, not all prospects are going to slide in and over achieve on expectations the way Monahan and Gaudreau did.

[Red Menace]

So, you are saying I should check myself before I wreck myself?
Got it...that's sound advice.

[FAN]

Mason Raymond is what he is. He is skilled enough to be a top 6 player and solid enough defensively to play on the 3rd line. He's just one of those players where the whole is less than the sum of all parts. If he isn't producing offensively he's kind of useless. He's considered good defensively because he has speed, backchecks, and knows how to position himself. But he is weak and loses puck battles which makes him a liability at times. He's a player who is a better fit on a team like the Coyotes than the Flames going forward.