Sven Baertschi Did Not Request Trade From Flames?

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Sven is tearing it up in Utica. He has 5 goals and 5 assist in 9 games and by all accounts is playing well defensively

If he turns it around and becomes an NHL player, that is really good for him. It wasn't going to happen here unfortunately and it was good of the management to find somewhere for him to have an opportunity.

[Cheese]

[YogiBerra]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Sven is tearing it up in Utica. He has 5 goals and 5 assist in 9 games and by all accounts is playing well defensively

Small sample size and not far enough off the point pace he averages in the ahl to be a significant difference. Fans tend to overrate their players defensive ability I wouldn't be concerned. Has a trade made him more competent defensively? Not likely; he is playing harder because he is more motivated now but it won't last.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Too late for that.

You say they should have played him in the NHL in the first place, but this raises the question by what metric? Baertschi was hardly forcing the Flames hand by his level of play in the AHL, and was being outperformed by several other prospects this season. There was nothing about his play at either level this season that made him exceptional. In light of that, to Just "play him in the first place" would have been both undeserved, and completely out of line with the standard set for the team.

Josh jooris was hardly forcing their hand either. I think he had 27 pts in over a full season in the ahl. How about Joe colborne walking into a roster spot. Drew shore basically doing the same. The whole setoguchi thing and how long they had the poor guy embarrassing himself while Sven was down In Addy or Abby. Oh did I mention Burke publically bashing the kid. That will do wonders for a prospects confidence and sense of belonging. Everything burke said was true. Just shouldn't have been said on camera. Should have only been a serious chat with the player. Also johnny isn't physical and asides from pokechecks and takeaways using his sleight of hand and tenacity he is just as big a liability defensively as Sven in my view. So if you give johnny the pass on physicality and being a solid 2 way player why can't Sven be an offensive specialist who is put in a position to thrive in the top 6 with pp time. The ahl is also a much much different league.


I can totally see why he wanted to leave. I'm upset at how we handled things.

Some fans just spew this regurgitated nonsense about earned never given blah blah. Its not the case 100% of the time.

I wish Sven all the best. Even if its on the nucks. I hope he becomes a perrenial all star because he has the talent and deserves to be seen and treated by some franchise the way we see gaudreau treated here. An offensive dynamo who you don't expect to be lance boumaing around the ice. Because that's not what he is. He wasn't that kind of player in junior and he won't be in the NHL. He will be a winger who is paired with a good 2way center and given a lot of freedom ala gaudreau.

Best of luck Sven. No hard feelings.

[DoubleF]

I see where you're coming from, but Setoguchi and Colborne were playing right wing. Jooris is also playing right wing. Colborne and Jooris also dabble with centre. These are all positions that Sven doesn't play. Sven was fighting for a LW spot. I can understand the fan frustration regarding Sven, but talking about players that play RW or centre spots (Team weakness) and showing that as the reason he was mishandled is unfair. Barts I believe was tried on RW in Addy and Abby and didn't do well.

I wish Sven well. I still believe the last game he played for us showed me something that he was going to get into the NHL full time. Little did I know, it might not be the Flames.

[Henry Fool]

Sven didn't show nearly enough offense to be given a spot as an offensive specialist.

I'm sure he can be a solid forward with enough seasoning but to me, as someone who doesn't know him that well outside the NHL, he seemed pretty incoherent on the ice, like he needed time to settle down and figure things out. And frankly he seemed more worried about what he was or wasn't being given than about improving his game.

Maybe now he feels more free to focus on the right things.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Josh jooris was hardly forcing their hand either. I think he had 27 pts in over a full season in the ahl. How about Joe colborne walking into a roster spot. Drew shore basically doing the same. The whole setoguchi thing and how long they had the poor guy embarrassing himself while Sven was down In Addy or Abby.

This has all been beaten pretty soundly to death. Colborne's waiver situation was a huge factor in the Flames decision, which basically amounted to keeping him on the NHL roster, or assigning him to the AHL and risk losing the player they just acquired in a trade. Josh Jooris had a phenomenal camp, and pretty much forced management's hand to keep him up (It is important to note that in the same context, this is something that Baertschi did not do: he had a very good camp, but it was no where close to how Jooris or Gaudreau performed). Drew Shore, again, will be at high risk of being picked up on waivers upon his next dispatch to the AHL. The "whole Setoguchi thing" had very little bearing upon what Baertschi was or was not doing to earn a spot in Calgary. No, he was not any better than Baertschi, but benefitted greatly by his status as a seasoned NHL veteran. Like it or not, "earned and never given" is not an equal measure that applies equally in every situation. It is a metric by which coaching personnel use to make decisions, but almost certainly not the only metric.

All of this is nothing more than blind naivety. I was and continue to be a Baertschi fan, and I hope he works his stuff out. Having said that, for two years now I have come to expect that he is just not good enough, more complete enough of a player to be much more than a middling NHLer.

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Oh did I mention Burke publically bashing the kid. That will do wonders for a prospects confidence and sense of belonging. Everything burke said was true. Just shouldn't have been said on camera. Should have only been a serious chat with the player.

This has been brought up ad infinitum. Most posters were not keen on Burke's approach, myself included. Most also agreed that he was correct in his assessment. I would hope that most finally agree that the incident was badly overblown, and that it should have no bearing on Baertschi's level of success. If it happens to, then I am not sure that is the kind of player a team can count on to make an impact.

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Also johnny isn't physical and asides from pokechecks and takeaways using his sleight of hand and tenacity he is just as big a liability defensively as Sven in my view. So if you give johnny the pass on physicality and being a solid 2 way player why can't Sven be an offensive specialist who is put in a position to thrive in the top 6 with pp time. The ahl is also a much much different league.

Are you seriously kidding me? This is beyond obvious. Guardian (EDIT: Awesome autocorrect at work, here!) is given leeway to be an offensive specialist, because he is DAMN GOOD AT IT. Baertschi was not, because he is just not that kind of player any more—not even close. He was a sensational juniour prospect, but I believe that multiple concussions and injuries that followed his draft year had serious debilitating consequences to his level and style of play. I think that this is probably the main reason why Baertschi struggles to play a two way game. He has looked slower, more off-balance, more hesitant, and much less instinctively creative since 2012. I have kept hoping he would turn it around, but at some point one just needs to accept that this is what he is.

Put simply he can't play Gaurdreau's game because he is not capable of doing it. The reason why there has been such a heavy emphasis on building his defensive game? Because coaches have recognised that THIS is how he will succeed. He is just not good enough to get by on his offensive skill—not any more.

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

I can totally see why he wanted to leave. I'm upset at how we handled things.

Some fans just spew this regurgitated nonsense about earned never given blah blah. Its not the case 100% of the time.

You're right, it's not. But it was certainly a significant factor in Baertschi's handling by the Flames. Again, he just was not good enough, nor better than those players with whom he was competing for a roster spot. He was not better than Gaudreau, nor Jooris, nor Granlund or Ferland at the beginning of the year. Even if he was a better choice than Colborne last year, this was not an instance in which the metric applied because of mitigating circumstances. He was not any better than Setoguchi this Fall, and by the weight of all the factors that go into making roster decisions, the tie went to the veteran.

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

I wish Sven all the best. Even if its on the nucks. I hope he becomes a perrenial all star because he has the talent and deserves to be seen and treated by some franchise the way we see gaudreau treated here. An offensive dynamo who you don't expect to be lance boumaing around the ice. Because that's not what he is. He wasn't that kind of player in junior and he won't be in the NHL. He will be a winger who is paired with a good 2way center and given a lot of freedom ala gaudreau.

Bullocks. He once had the promise of playing this kind of game, but those days are unfortunately gone. For three years now we have waited for Baertschi to break through offensively and it NEVER HAPPENED. He was given ample opportunities to do so in the AHL and NEVER DID. Perhaps he has finally come through now in Utica, but I am highly sceptical about his ability to translate this at the NHL level.

It is unfortunate what happened to Baertschi. But this is not an instance in which he was held back or broken unfairly by an uncaring management group who stubbornly set different sets of rules for different players based on their personal feelings. Baertschi's potential to succeed in the NHL was sadly dramatically affected by some pretty serious injuries. Expectations foisted unfairly upon him by a rabid fanbase, and his own resulting sense of entitlement didn't help matters a whit.

He may yet make it, but I am hugely sceptical that he will ever be an offensive star in the NHL.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

If he turns it around and becomes an NHL player, that is really good for him. It wasn't going to happen here unfortunately and it was good of the management to find somewhere for him to have an opportunity.

There were 27 other teams they could have traded him to and I wouldn't be as pissed. And I say "as" because I still say he has a far better chance of being an impact NHL'er than any 2nd round pick let alone somewhere between 45-50.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by T@T

There were 27 other teams they could have traded him to and I wouldn't be as pissed. And I say "as" because I still say he has a far better chance of being an impact NHL'er than any 2nd round pick let alone somewhere between 45-50.

Well, had they traded to another of these 27 teams for a lower return, I would have been much more disappointed in the light of Vancouver's very high offer. This was good asset management, plain and simple, your own personal feelings of slight notwithstanding.

As for your "far better chance of [Baertschi's] being an impact NHL'er," how do you figure? Without knowing who that pick will be, how can you draw such a certain conclusion? What are Baertschi's "chances" at this point, anyways?

[PeteMoss]

We still talking about this?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Well, had they traded to another of these 27 teams for a lower return, I would have been much more disappointed in the light of Vancouver's very high offer. This was good asset management, plain and simple, your own personal feelings of slight notwithstanding.

As for your "far better chance of [Baertschi's] being an impact NHL'er," how do you figure? Without knowing who that pick will be, how can you draw such a certain conclusion? What are Baertschi's "chances" at this point, anyways?

I play the odds, would you care for a long term gamble?

[868904]

I don't wish him any good luck. He's a selfish, self entitled and immature brat.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by 868904

I don't wish him any good luck. He's a selfish, self entitled and immature brat.

Former roommate?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by T@T

Former roommate?

They always promise to call afterwards, then they slink off first thing in the morning leaving just a sock and a used condom or two.

[madmike]

Ken Agostino has 17 points in his last 16 AHL games, while playing a solid 2-way game. I like Agostino, but does anyone really think he'd be a top 6 player in the NHL?

A PPG pace in the AHL doesn't mean a ton. We won't see how Baertschi's game will really translate until he starts getting regular NHL time.

[Poe969]

our future second round pick is doing even better.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

10 points in 9 games is really good, but... It's 9 games. Guys put up points when they get into a new system sometimes - initial drive to show what you can do, etc. Even if it keeps up, they didn't trade for him so he could light up the AHL. Assess this when he makes or doesn't make the team next fall.

[Roof-Daddy]

I don't know if the coaching staff dropped the ball with Sven or not, but either way I'm willing to go with them on this one. They've shown me enough to gain my trust in their handling of young players.

In the last three seasons:

- They've dressed 23 players in their FIRST NHL games
- They've graduated Monahan, Gaudreau, Bouma, Byron, Colborne and Jooris into full time NHLers
- They've helped already NHLers like Backlund, Brodie, and Russell take their NHL games to new levels


Not to mention how some of the veterans have also flourished under this staff, like Giordano and Hudler, and what they've done with this team as whole......actually taking what looks like a sub standard, below the cap floor team from what was supposed to be a basement dwelling disaster, and have them on the verge of potentially making the playoffs.

They certainly don't seem to hold anyone back who's willing to do things the right way.

[Resolute 14]

The question wrt Baertschi is not how he is doing when everything is going his way. It is how he will do when he hits adversity again. He simply couldn't handle it here. Will he handle it better in Vancouver next year if they don't hand him a top-six spot out of the gate? Or if he doesn't produce there either and sees his ice time decline? Will he pout like he seemed to do so much here?

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I don't know if the coaching staff dropped the ball with Sven or not, but either way I'm willing to go with them on this one. They've shown me enough to gain my trust in their handling of young players.



In the last three seasons:



- They've dressed 23 players in their FIRST NHL games

- They've graduated Monahan, Gaudreau, Bouma, Byron, Colborne and Jooris into full time NHLers

- They've helped already NHLers like Backlund, Brodie, and Russell take their NHL games to new levels





Not to mention how some of the veterans have also flourished under this staff, like Giordano and Hudler, and what they've done with this team as whole......actually taking what looks like a sub standard, below the cap floor team from what was supposed to be a basement dwelling disaster, and have them on the verge of potentially making the playoffs.



They certainly don't seem to hold anyone back who's willing to do things the right way.

No kidding. It's ridiculous how people say he didn't get a chance like there's some sort of conspiracy. He wasn't producing in the AHL and still got multiple call-ups. He still didn't produce at any level and furthermore his game away from he pick was poor. His production totals were trending in the wrong direction every year.