The idea that Iginla held the team back is insane, utterly insane. The fact that he scored 30 goals every year is astonishing, he succeeded in spite of his teammates not because of them. Iginla and Kiprusoff literally carried the team into the playoffs for years.
Opposing coaches would come out and say their strategy was team up on Iginla. For years he'd be triple teamed entering the zone only to pass it off to Conroy, Glencross, Jokinen or even Kris freaking Kolanos and they'd bobble the puck and kill the scoring chance. That he scored 30 goals while being triple teamed on a nightly basis is crazy. I honestly can't believe he did it. There'd be nights he'd have guys clinging to him and he'd be shaking them off while shoving the puck to the net with one hand. What a terrible analysis there Phanuthier.
where did i say this?
And why do you mention Conroy, Glencross and Jokinen? Why not Huselius, Tanguay and Langkow? Kry Kolanos, really? How many games did Kolanos even play on Iginla's line?
How many times was Iginla triple teamed in this full-year highlights?
Watch the full year highlights (courtasy of AC) ... maybe in his last year, his linemates were not as good but by that time we were primed for a rebuild and it was time to trade him anyways ... but tell me, which parts of those full year highlights do you see any of those players you mentioned above on his line, and/or him getting triple teamed?
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"With a coach and a player, sometimes there's just so much respect there that it's boils over"
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Last edited by Phanuthier; 03-17-2015 at 10:49 AM.
Stephen Whyno @SWhyno
Doug Wilson just held court with reporters, said he and Joe Thornton patched things up and #SJSharks center isn't going anywhere next year.
Iginla would have had that #1C if Button had not thrown him away because a terrible coach didn't like him.
It was never going to work with Marc in Calgary, there was no future there. He quit on the team, publically demanded a trade and was a ######bag in general, poisoning any chance at reconciliation. Can't fault that part on Button, but you can fault him for how protracted the dispute became, how he chose to back Gilbert instead of firing him before he fired him anyway, and how he helped nuke his own player's value through his bungling of said situation. Marc had to grow up and mature, it's too bad he couldn't have done it somewhere else before coming here in a trade for our 27th ranked prospect, but that's how it goes sometimes.
The big miss was not pursuing Thornton more aggressively when he was available. Not sure if the rumored package of Regehr/Yelle/Kobesew was legit or not, but you have to think Sutter could've topped SJ's meager offering if he really wanted to. Personally I think sacrificing RR would've been well worth it to acquire a top 5 center, however I believe Sutter was still too enamored with certain players following the run in 04, but we'll never know the full story.
The big miss was not pursuing Thornton more aggressively when he was available. Not sure if the rumored package of Regehr/Yelle/Kobesew was legit or not, but you have to think Sutter could've topped SJ's meager offering if he really wanted to. Personally I think sacrificing RR would've been well worth it to acquire a top 5 center, however I believe Sutter was still too enamored with certain players following the run in 04, but we'll never know the full story.
What would our defense have looked like if we would have made that deal?
How many teams make it to the SCF with such a weak blueline with minimal depth? If we make that deal, Cory Sarich is our No 3 defenseman and might even be top pairing.
I also know that in 2006 (2007?) we were close to signing Savard as a UFA.... that would have made a huge difference. But I still remember those 2007-2010 years, getting offense was never our downfall.
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"With a coach and a player, sometimes there's just so much respect there that it's boils over"
-Taylor Hall
What would our defense have looked like if we would have made that deal?
How many teams make it to the SCF with such a weak blueline with minimal depth? If we make that deal, Cory Sarich is our No 3 defenseman and might even be top pairing.
I also know that in 2006 (2007?) we were close to signing Savard as a UFA.... that would have made a huge difference. But I still remember those 2007-2010 years, getting offense was never our downfall.
I'd worry about upgrading my defence after I aquired the requisite top center every team needs to be a true contender. They only become available on the trade market every 5-10 years, I would've moved heaven and hell to make that happen. Acquiring another top 4 dman to replace Regehr would've been easy by comparison, they become available all the time. It seems like half a dozen move at/near the trade deadline each year. Sure you might not get a stud like Reggie, but it would've been possible to find someone serviceable at a decent price.
Fill in the ??? with someone competent and I see no problems with that, especially given how Iggy/Thornton would've been giving goalies everywhere PTSD on a nightly basis.
Last edited by Fire of the Phoenix; 03-17-2015 at 11:05 AM.
I'd worry about upgrading my defence after I aquired the requisite top center every team needs to be a true contender. They only become available on the trade market every 5-10 years, I would've moved heaven and he'll to make that happen. Acquiring another top 4 dman to replace Regehr would've been easy by comparison, they become available all the time. It seems like half a dozen move at/near the trade deadline each year. Sure you might not get a stud like Reggie, but it would've been possible to find someone serviceable at a decent price.
Fill in the ??? with someone competent and I see no problems with that, especially given how Iggy/Thornton would've been giving goalies everywhere PTSD on a nightly basis.
Besides Chara (and maybe Boyle) who was available? I guess if you could have fortold the future, would have known Willie Mitchell could have been one, but at the time, Regehr was good enough to make Team Canada World Cup team, so he was one of the top 6 Canadian defenseman in the NHL..... not easy to replace.
That lineup is pretty bad because Phaneuf was playing sheltered minutes, so Leopold-Warraner (or Leopold-Sarich) is our top pairing D - thats pretty ugly.
Also - trying to remember timelines of the deal, but if you make the deal for Thornton (Regehr/Kobasew/??) then you don't make the deal for Tanguay or Langkow. So, which line looks better?
Stephen Whyno @SWhyno
Doug Wilson just held court with reporters, said he and Joe Thornton patched things up and #SJSharks center isn't going anywhere next year.
As if Wilson's word regarding San Jose player moves after this season is relevant or matters.
So now that Wilson has said Joe isn't going anywhere, how long until he's not on the Sharks? I think Joe is an awesome player and would LOVE him on the Flames but I think as long as he's in San Jose, that team will be average at best.
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Fan of the Flames, where being OK has become OK.
Besides Chara (and maybe Boyle) who was available? I guess if you could have fortold the future, would have known Willie Mitchell could have been one, but at the time, Regehr was good enough to make Team Canada World Cup team, so he was one of the top 6 Canadian defenseman in the NHL..... not easy to replace.
That lineup is pretty bad because Phaneuf was playing sheltered minutes, so Leopold-Warraner (or Leopold-Sarich) is our top pairing D - thats pretty ugly.
Also - trying to remember timelines of the deal, but if you make the deal for Thornton (Regehr/Kobasew/??) then you don't make the deal for Tanguay or Langkow. So, which line looks better?
I've always thought a stud d-man is pretty much = stud centre when building a cup winner or contender. Look at what Edmonton did the one year Pronger played and they got decent goaltending.
And consider that San Jose had Thornton (and he played just fine IMO) and didn't come that close to a cup. Mainly because their defence wasn't great.
Reg was very good then. Best defensive d-man in the game IMO. In that one World Cup he was assigned to Jagr and shut him down really well.
Besides Chara (and maybe Boyle) who was available?
That lineup is pretty bad because Phaneuf was playing sheltered minutes, so Leopold-Warraner (or Leopold-Sarich) is our top pairing D - thats pretty ugly.
Also - trying to remember timelines of the deal, but if you make the deal for Thornton (Regehr/Kobasew/??) then you don't make the deal for Tanguay or Langkow. So, which line looks better?
Langkow was already be here. You're right, Tanguay would've likely not been acquired. Huselius may have still been acquired, can't remember if it was before or after the Thornton trade. Conroy and Aucoin weren't on the team. Acquiring a guy like Thornton would've altered the subsequent transactions so it's not even worth going into. My point is I would get that true #1 center and worry about the other stuff later. Build the foundation for the house before you build the kitchen and bathroom.
And I disagree that the defense would've been ugly, it would be average at best but teams have made the playoffs with worse. Teams don't win in the playoffs without a true #1 center though, so that absolutely would've been my priority. After that I would focus on defense, which might have taken a season or two to improve to contender status, but if that's the price for acquiring Thornton, I would've gladly paid it.
Sarich wasn't a Flame until 2 seasons after Thornton was traded to San Jose.
If Sutter had moved Regehr, then the Montador for Huselius deal probably wouldn't have happened (it happened two days after the Thornton trade).
Without Regehr in Calgary, there may have been a spot on the blueline open earlier for Gio or Richie Regehr. Gio may not have gone to Russia and never developed into the player he did, or he may have developed into the player he is four seasons earlier, who knows?
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I've always thought a stud d-man is pretty much = stud centre when building a cup winner or contender. Look at what Edmonton did the one year Pronger played and they got decent goaltending.
And consider that San Jose had Thornton (and he played just fine IMO) and didn't come that close to a cup. Mainly because their defence wasn't great.
Reg was very good then. Best defensive d-man in the game IMO. In that one World Cup he was assigned to Jagr and shut him down really well.
A Pronger or a Niedermayer might = a #1 Center but a guy like Regehr doesn't even come close IMO. RR was a great defensive dman but had some clear limitations, skating and passing among them. Can't compare him to a couple of star (HoF) two-way dmen, not even fair to Robyn. Those guys were every bit as good as Regehr in their own zone but light years ahead of him in every other way.
Last edited by Fire of the Phoenix; 03-17-2015 at 11:31 AM.
Langkow was already be here. You're right, Tanguay would've likely not been acquired. Huselius may have still been acquired, can't remember if it was before or after the Thornton trade. Conroy and Aucoin weren't on the team. Acquiring a guy like Thornton would've altered the subsequent transactions so it's not even worth going into. My point is I would get that true #1 center and worry about the other stuff later. Build the foundation for the house before you build the kitchen and bathroom.
And I disagree that the defense would've been ugly, it would be average at best but teams have made the playoffs with worse. Teams don't win in the playoffs without a true #1 center though, so that absolutely would've been my priority. After that I would focus on defense, which might have taken a season or two to improve to contender status, but if that's the price for acquiring Thornton, I would've gladly paid it.
They didn't win a cup but I recall a team in 04 that did fairly well with a mid-level number one centre. Some people even think they won it but the goal was disallowed.
Cup winners: Boston had Bergeron who is really really good, but not like Thornton or Toews IMO. Carolina had Koivu who is at that same level. The Devils won with no great centre but terrific D and goaltending.
A Pronger or a Niedermayer might = a #1 Center but a guy like Regehr doesn't even come close IMO. RR was a great defensive dman but had some clear limitations, skating and passing among them. Can't compare him to a couple of star (HoF) two-way dmen, not even fair to Robyn. Those guys were every bit as good as Regehr in their own zone but light years ahead of him in every other way.
I never said he was the equal of those guys. But he was a stud defenceman. BTW passing wasn't a limitation for Regehr - his passes were just fine. Not Brodie-like, but he easily exited the zone and made good offensive passes as well.
But you can't say Thornton = Stanley Cup either (I think San Jose's record proves this). Especially if you gut the Calgary defence by removing the key guy without an adequate replacement.
This is the worst possible time for San Jose to deal with internal conflicts. For an organization that has had so much success (albeit without any Stanley Cups) in the last decade, it really surprises me that Wilson would be so unprofessional. There was nothing to gain by beating a dead horse, and now Thornton is livid, and rightfully so.
They didn't win a cup but I recall a team in 04 that did fairly well with a mid-level number one centre. Some people even think they won it but the goal was disallowed.
Cup winners: Boston had Bergeron who is really really good, but not like Thornton or Toews IMO. Carolina had Koivu who is at that same level. The Devils won with no great centre but terrific D and goaltending.
The bruins also had Krejci, who was an absolute monster that spring. Carolina had Staal and Brind'Amour, not Koivu. The devils were a bit of an exception but had players like Broten/Holik in 95, Gomez/Nieuwendyk/Madden in 03 and Arnott instead of Nieuwendyk in 2000. The big reasons the devils never need a true star #1 were because of Niedermayer and Brodeur.
That 04 team was an outlier. I love them to pieces but that is not a championship blueprint, it was a Cinderella story of epic proportions. The success of which impacted Sutter's judgment of where the team was truly at in terms of it's development IMO. It was lightning in a bottle that changed the focus from the future to the present. Not the best comparable really, especially considering they lost.
The bruins also had Krejci, who was an absolute monster that spring. Carolina had Staal and Brind'Amour, not Koivu. The devils were a bit of an exception but had players like Broten/Holik in 95, Gomez/Nieuwendyk/Madden in 03 and Arnott instead of Nieuwendyk in 2000. The big reasons the devils never need a true star #1 were because of Niedermayer and Brodeur.
That 04 team was an outlier. I love them to pieces but that is not a championship blueprint, it was a Cinderella story of epic proportions. The success of which impacted Sutter's judgment of where the team was truly at in terms of it's development IMO. It was lightning in a bottle that changed the focus from the future to the present. Not the best comparable really, especially considering they lost.
I think you've just shown what I said. None of those centres were elite centres. They were a tier below IMO. And that's good enough if you have strong defence, great goaltending and team offence.
The 04 Flames may be an outlier but it was replicated with Pronger and Edmonton, and a few other teams that made it close. It wasn't because of a lack of centre depth they ultimately lost - it was their defence getting very depleted.
I never said he was the equal of those guys. But he was a stud defenceman. BTW passing wasn't a limitation for Regehr - his passes were just fine. Not Brodie-like, but he easily exited the zone and made good offensive passes as well.
But you can't say Thornton = Stanley Cup either (I think San Jose's record proves this). Especially if you gut the Calgary defence by removing the key guy without an adequate replacement.
Sorry, you mentioned them in basically the same breath so it seemed like a bit of a comparison there, no biggie. Disagree on Regehr's passing ability, it was pretty poor compared to most other top pairing guys in the league. He needed to play with a puck moving dman like Leopold for a reason.
Also, just because SJ never won a cup with Thornton doesn't mean Calgary wouldn't have.
