Calgary Public Transit - Discussion

[HOWITZER]

After having spent the weekend in Toronto this weekend and San Francisco last weekend, what are people's opinions on streetcars, and do you think they'd have a place in Calgary again? Do you think within the confines of Crowchild, Glenmore, Deerfoot and 16th Ave a grid of streetcar lines would be beneficial to the city's transportation network vs buses?

Discuss!

[Tyler]

Visual eye pollution

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by HOWITZER

After having spent the weekend in Toronto this weekend and San Francisco last weekend, what are people's opinions on streetcars, and do you think they'd have a place in Calgary again? Do you think within the confines of Crowchild, Glenmore, Deerfoot and 16th Ave a grid of streetcar lines would be beneficial to the city's transportation network vs buses?

Discuss!

No. I don't see any benefit to running street cars. We already have a decent bus network so what would street cars add?

[HOWITZER]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

No. I don't see any benefit to running street cars. We already have a decent bus network so what would street cars add?

Acknowledging the visual pollution overhead, I would think that streetcars offer a quieter, less polluting alternative on higher capacity routes. I would argue that there is precedent around the world that permanent transit infrastructure leads to sustained mixed-use development along those corridors and streetcars are a low-cost, highly visible fixture.

I do not believe that transit is a one-size fit all problem. I think the inclusion of lrt, buses, streetcars, etc. together create a functional system provided that the correct mode is used in the right context for the correct reasons.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by HOWITZER

Acknowledging the visual pollution overhead, I would think that streetcars offer a quieter, less polluting alternative on higher capacity routes.

Would it be that much better than using natural gas? I believe there is an order in place for natural gas buses.

[HOWITZER]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Would it be that much better than using natural gas? I believe there is an order in place for natural gas buses.

In a tight urban area such as the core/beltline/dense neighbourhoods? I would think so. But at the same time, it isn't just about the type of vehicle used, it's a larger scale public space issue. I think you could make a case that different types of transportation vehicles not only offer different carrying capacities, but also differ in the built space that they are ideally suited for.

Breaking down some common public transportation vehicles:
- Diesel bus: Best suited in suburban areas with larger streets, lower frequency, and less pedestrian traffic over long distances (Fits the detached home market)
- Natural Gas/Fuel Cell: Suited for large roads in urban/suburban areas with frequent stops/starts serving lower frequency (due to low capacity) over shorter distances due to fuel capacity (Detached home/sparsely connected 2-4 storey neighbourhood)
- Trolley bus: Wide urban street, many stops, low frequency (capacity) (Wide mixed-use environment)
- Tram/Streetcar: Small/large urban street, less stops than bus, higher frequency, streets with sensitive noise environments (ideal for streets with street facing restaurants/cafes), (Tighter 3-4 storey mixed-use environment)
- LRT: Dedicated right of way, limited stop, high speed, medium capacity, urban neighbourhood connector. The CTrain is the perfect example of the type of service LRT should offer, except for downtown. High rises a feature near stations, more for connecting between areas of city.
- Heavy rail/Metro/Subway: Urban, high capacity, high speed, grade separated, high frequency. CTrain ideally should have been taken below-grade when built on 7th avenue (hindsight is 20-20 and $ are a consideration). Usually limited to high density areas of city.
- RER: Limited stop connecting quadrants/sections of city and outlying region. GO Train in Toronto is an excellent example along the Lakeshore East and West area
- Intercity: No inner-city connections other than at a centralized hub, connects city to other provincial cities. No real Canadian examples here other than Union Station in Toronto maybe? Obvious examples include Waterloo station in London and the cities connected through it.

As I go through above, I think there is definitely a place for alternative fuel source vehicles in town, but in it's own specific use case. I am not advocating for streetcars to replace buses throughout the city, only in specific cases that warrant such a conversion. Whether due to high-demand that is less than LRT standard or a type of neighbourhood that warrants this type of service. I am curious of what specific places could a streetcar be useful. If none, then why? Is there an inherent advantage to operating only buses in Calgary vs other markets?

[#-3]

Not sure about the wires, but some kind of a easy access trolley system on 4th, 14th streets & 17th ave could completely transform one of the fast growing areas in the city.

[KelVarnsen]

Calgarians are pretty good at hitting the C-Train, and would probably be worse with a streetcar...

[Addick]

Originally Posted by HOWITZER

In a tight urban area such as the core/beltline/dense neighbourhoods? I would think so. But at the same time, it isn't just about the type of vehicle used, it's a larger scale public space issue. I think you could make a case that different types of transportation vehicles not only offer different carrying capacities, but also differ in the built space that they are ideally suited for.

Breaking down some common public transportation vehicles...

The major advantage that streetcars have over busses are their greater capacity. However, this advantage is very pricey and only results in more passengers becoming stuck in mixed-traffic. Alternatively, a dedicated right-of-way would allow numerous modes of public transport to consistently achieve frequencies of 15 minutes or less (i.e. rapid transit). Consequently, it is more efficient and effective to invest in bus lanes than streetcars.

Once the bus lanes become congested, you can place tracks in the RoW and convert your Bus Rapid Transit into Light Rail Rapid Transit. If you break public transport into categories based on frequency rather than mode/technology, it removes the limitations wrongly places on certain modes.

Public Transport By Frequency
Twice Daily
Hourly (Peak Only)
Hourly (All Day)
30 Minutes
15 Minutes
5 Minutes
2 Minutes

[HOWITZER]

Originally Posted by Addick

The major advantage that streetcars have over busses are their greater capacity. However, this advantage is very pricey and only results in more passengers becoming stuck in mixed-traffic. Alternatively, a dedicated right-of-way would allow numerous modes of public transport to consistently achieve frequencies of 15 minutes or less (i.e. rapid transit). Consequently, it is more efficient and effective to invest in bus lanes than streetcars.

Once the bus lanes become congested, you can place tracks in the RoW and convert your Bus Rapid Transit into Light Rail Rapid Transit. If you break public transport into categories based on frequency rather than mode/technology, it removes the limitations wrongly places on certain modes.

Public Transport By Frequency
Twice Daily
Hourly (Peak Only)
Hourly (All Day)
30 Minutes
15 Minutes
5 Minutes
2 Minutes

Thanks for the insight. Follow-up question, is it possible to progressively upgrade roadways/streets from a car-centric framework to a more rapid transit focused network using the time methodology you listed? So a 4-lane road might start as mixed-use, then say a priority lane for carpooling and buses, then an exclusive lane for bus, convert this lane for tram, then eventually for LRT?

[Addick]

Originally Posted by HOWITZER

Thanks for the insight. Follow-up question, is it possible to progressively upgrade roadways/streets from a car-centric framework to a more rapid transit focused network using the time methodology you listed? So a 4-lane road might start as mixed-use, then say a priority lane for carpooling and buses, then an exclusive lane for bus, convert this lane for tram, then eventually for LRT?

Yup. It is possible and we will witness this evolution on Centre Street with the development of the Green Line. Unfortunately, the efficient progression of public transport is a lesson many municipalities in North America have learned the hard way so I can't think of many precedents off of the top of my head.

Curitiba has done a splendid job creating their BRT network and it has been so successful that they now need to transition to an LRT or heavy rail network. As they already have the RoW, it shows the immense value of RoW protection.

[Darkwater]

Bloody transit.. don't give a toss about us partyers.. buggers. Be on time from Vic park, screw maintenance, be on time! -_-

[jwslam]

Originally Posted by HOWITZER

After having spent the weekend in Toronto this weekend and San Francisco last weekend, what are people's opinions on streetcars, and do you think they'd have a place in Calgary again? Do you think within the confines of Crowchild, Glenmore, Deerfoot and 16th Ave a grid of streetcar lines would be beneficial to the city's transportation network vs buses?

Discuss!

FYI Been there done that
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~wyatt/a...algary-ab.html

[Drummer]

What happened to getting 4 car C-Trains?

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by Drummer

What happened to getting 4 car C-Trains?

It's a lot like Ken King's arena announcement. Soon...

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Drummer

What happened to getting 4 car C-Trains?

I think they are still on track with the platform extensions and are simply waiting for the new LRVs required to create four-car consists without breaking up any three-car consists.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Drummer

What happened to getting 4 car C-Trains?

The extra cars required to go to 4 car trains were ordered two years ago, and were always scheduled to start arriving in August 2015. It'll be Sept or Oct before you start seeing any 4 car trains, and a couple of months after that before you start seeing them with any regularity.

[BlackArcher101]

Calgary Transit cancels Connect card, vows legal action to recover money

After five years, two contracts, and $5 million, Calgary Transit has pulled the plug on its electronic fare system.

Citing reliability issues with the system and the supplier, Schneider Electric, the city announced Tuesday it would not move ahead with its Connect system.

“As the system deals with customer funds and Calgary Transit revenues, intermittent failures of the system would be unacceptable,” Calgary Transit said in a release. “Based on the testing, the EFC system could negatively impact the customers’ experience in paying their fares.”

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...-recover-money


This is just embarrassing at this point. How in this day and age, are we at the point of not having a system at all? Are decision makers this inept?

[Addick]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Are decision makers this inept?

Having tested out the latest iteration of the Connect Card, we've dodged a bullet. CT can deffo go out and get something much better. However, EFC systems are not products you can simply grab off of the shelf. Even the most basic EFC systems need customization in order to operate with the different systems/processes used by the public transportation agency and municipality.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by Addick

Having tested out the latest iteration of the Connect Card, we've dodged a bullet. CT can deffo go out and get something much better. However, EFC systems are not products you can simply grab off of the shelf. Even the most basic EFC systems need customization in order to operate with the different systems/processes used by the public transportation agency and municipality.

Yes, but if this is what I had to show my boss after after being tasked 5 years ago with implementing a system, I'd be fired. Customization of an existing system wouldn't take that long either.