Joe Thornton says GM Doug Wilson "needs to stop lying, shut his mouth."

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I didn't think Wilson said anything that bad...Sorry Joe you didn't get it done, its a results based business

Wilson basically refers to his meeting with Thornton... (The one where by all accounts he uses Joe as a scape goat and tries to get him to waive his no trade clause he got as part of a home town discount) ... And tries to paint it like he was the nice guy looking out for Joe by coming out in public and telling the world that Joe can't handle stress.

The entire San Jose team knows that Joe (and Marleau) got jerked around by the organization over the summer and I bet Joe elected to make his response public because he knows it will galvanize that room as they push to get in to a playoff spot.

[Vulcan]

Well I've heard of players having the final say over the coach but this is the first time I've heard of a player having the final say over a GM. I expect Wilson will be gone.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

Don't disagree with Thornton, BUT, you can not say that about your GM. Period.

What is he gonna do? Trade him?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Singularity

What is he gonna do? Trade him?

Eklund - Thornton for Kessel E5

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by T@T

Eklund - Thornton for Kessel E5

I think the joke being he has a full no move clause

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Just for perspective, Joe has been a playoff producer despite the notion that he's not a leader. For comparison here are his regular season and playoff point comparisons for his career.

Regular Season: GP-1271, G-355, A-896, P-1251, P/G-0.98

Playoffs: GP-132, G-24, A-76, P-100, P/G-0.76

So really, not that big of a drop off in his production in the playoffs, which is largely due to how competitive the games are and how much more difficult it is to score in the playoffs. However, just need to throw this out there too.

Regular Season Career +/-: +178
Playoff Career +/-: -27

Joe has regularly been a liability defensively in the playoffs, despite his point production. Even if he was only a +5, that would still be good, but he's quite far into the negative. Of his 14 years in the post-season, he's been a "plus" player just 5 times, and often just barely. He's been a "minus" player 7 years, including some truly atrocious years like 09/10 where he was -11 in 15 games despite putting up 12 points. It might be unfair to point to plus/minus since it's a team stat, but Thornton certainly isn't helping his team, and that's definitely not what a leader does in crunch time. They may have run into some good teams, but when the same thing happens over and over again in the playoffs, it's no longer an anomaly and is likely the norm. Thornton just never had an extra gear in crunch time.

For comparison, Marleau is a -11 over nearly identical playoff games played and point production.

As for Wilson's comments, he's obviously been trying to run Joe out of town, but it doesn't reflect well on anyone the way this has played out. I called an implosion of the Sharks dressing room at some point this year, but I'm surprised it took this long.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Well I've heard of players having the final say over the coach but this is the first time I've heard of a player having the final say over a GM. I expect Wilson will be gone.

Probably, but I doubt it'll be over Thornton.

Hes built a good team for a long time and Joe is 35, but its probably time to give someone else a shot.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Didn't Thornton pretty much say last summer that the only way he would leave San Jose was if the fans and players no longer wanted him there?

Yup. This is a power struggle. Wilson wants to get rid of Thornton so he can rebuild, but Thornton wants to stay. I half think Wilson made those comments specifically to make Thornton want out, but it will probably backfire on him.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Azure

Leadership is never on any single person. Giving Wideman a letter didn't suddenly make him a better 'leader.' He earned it all season.

Thornton simply isn't cutting it, and the fact that the Sharks are trying to prance around the issue instead of just trading him away when he clearly isn't going to win him anything is pretty sad.

Same reason the Flames traded Bouw and Iginla. Just having a letter did not make those guys leaders. Much better leadership now than we ever had in the previous decade.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Azure

Leadership is never on any single person. Giving Wideman a letter didn't suddenly make him a better 'leader.' He earned it all season.

Thornton simply isn't cutting it, and the fact that the Sharks are trying to prance around the issue instead of just trading him away when he clearly isn't going to win him anything is pretty sad.

They can't trade him. He has a full NTC and doesn't want to go.

[Sylvanfan]

Yeah, this looks good on Wilson. He sign two guys to discount extensions with no trade clauses and wants to trade them 3 months later.

He could have waited till after the playoffs and realized he needed to move on from them, or tell them last deadline that they were not in the plans. He let the players have this power, and it looks like he's the easiest one to get rid of.

[killer_carlson]

Yeah, Wilson screwed this up.

As was said above, Thornton didn't say a word about this public and now the GM, months later, runs his mouth. Now the Sharks have to deal with this drama in the stretch drive. Poor decision by GM.

[Mattman]

Originally Posted by Locke

Probably, but I doubt it'll be over Thornton.

Hes built a good team for a long time and Joe is 35, but its probably time to give someone else a shot.

He has acquired lots of clutch players in his time as GM but there's holes in the San Jose roster that Wilson never addressed.

This is the fall of the Sharks.

[Table 5]

The Sharks are in the position the Flames found themselves in, where in a lot of ways it's best if everyone at the senior level just exits the picture...from GM to coach to the long-time franchise players. There's just too much history and weight on everyone involved, and they won't get past this until they do.

As soon as they do, they can start breathing again.

[cannon7]

If this costs Wilson his job, I think NMCs/NTCs will become increasingly rare as GMs will come to the full realization that a NMC/NTC effectively gives the player all the power.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by cannon7

If this costs Wilson his job, I think NMCs/NTCs will become increasingly rare as GMs will come to the full realization that a NMC/NTC effectively gives the player all the power.

I doubt it. As long as a ntc/nmc becomes the difference in signing a big name player at a discount, GMs will still hand them out.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

I doubt it. As long as a ntc/nmc becomes the difference in signing a big name player at a discount, GMs will still hand them out.

Disagree. I think GMs sense of self preservation will prevail. There's plenty of examples of these big name NTCs going awry and now the Thornton situation highlights what happens when there's bad blood between a GM and a NTC.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Mattman

He has acquired lots of clutch players in his time as GM but there's holes in the San Jose roster that Wilson never addressed.

This is the fall of the Sharks.

What team doesnt have any holes?

I dont think they've ever missed the playoffs during his tenure and they've consistently been at the top end of the regular season standings.

They've never managed to put it together in the playoffs, but why? If anyone really knew they'd have done something about it. It just seems that the players take their foot off the gas and thats down to coaching and leadership.

And Joe's got to eat some of that too. The long-term guys have to know and accept that they have pissed away a lot of great chances to win and thats on them.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

I doubt it. As long as a ntc/nmc becomes the difference in signing a big name player at a discount, GMs will still hand them out.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit too. I doubt this is going to be GMs' call though. GMs will keep signing big name players to keep their jobs and to demonstrate to the owners that they are effective and can make splashes etc. They will use all of the contract tools available to them including this one. It will be the owners that would eventually come to grips with how damaging NMC/NTC clause really is to their bargaining positions in situations when player's presence in the locker room and on ice becomes a problem for the whole team. It is foolish to think they don't know it already. But the big names do sell tickets and jerseys, so the illusory benefits are still outweighing the real negatives. It's just a matter of time, I think, until the owners grudgingly acknowledge the necessity of killing the NMC/NTC. And then, of course, there will be collective bargaining issues...

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Didn't Thornton pretty much say last summer that the only way he would leave San Jose was if the fans and players no longer wanted him there?

The fans and players probably wanted Iginla to stay in Calgary too.

Doesn't mean its the right choice.