Sven Baertschi Did Not Request Trade From Flames?

[Henry Fool]

The leading scorer in the AHL Teemu Pulkkinen has 34 goals in 46 games this year, yet Detroit has been very slow to give him minutes with the big club.

There simply is a minimum level of overall game that successful clubs demand from their young players.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

That's also the Detroitiest thing to do ever. Nobody is allowed into the NHL until they're 24.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

That's also the Detroitiest thing to do ever. Nobody is allowed into the NHL until they're 24.

It also keeps their farm team competitive, with players that matter to the parent club. It's a mind set that's worth the wait

[Tyler]

Probably helps with the salary cap too

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

That's also the Detroitiest thing to do ever. Nobody is allowed into the NHL until they're 24.

It's a bit frustrating because I was perfectly prepared to wait for Bärtschi to continue to grow in the minors. Everyone including the prospects in Detroit know what their team is about and that they need to be patient, not look for a fast track solution.

[Red Menace]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Brodie, Gaudreau, Granlund, Wotherspoon, Bouma, Ferland and Ortio say hello.

Seriously, you're beating a dead horse here. Let the thread die now.

I am going to let it go, I am usually not one to get involved in this nonsense, so I apologize....BUT....you are cherry picking some very rare cases there. We can list hundreds of picks after #50 that went nowhere.
Anyway, I hope this turns out to be one of those rare cases, and the Flames drafting has been pretty good lately so I certainly have hopes that it can yield something positive.
I don't agree with the organizations handling of Sven at all and think they really mismanaged a valuable asset at almost every step.
Anyway, onwards and upwards....

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

We'll actually be lucky to get someone who has as good a career as Oleg Saprykin with that 2nd rd pick....
If someone proves they can play in NHL, like I believe Sven did, then you don't throw them away for 2nd rd picks....the odds at finding a NHL asset in pick #50 and beyond is pretty low...
I eagerly anticipate all the hateful responses.....

2nd round picks have a lot more value than you think both in the draft and in trades. Go look at all the players that have been traded for 2nd rounders. We got Kiprusoff for a 2nd at one point. We got Rene Bourque for a 2nd and later dealt him for Cammalleri.

Throw them away for 2nd round picks? The hyperbole is too much man, too much. 2nd rounders are only slightly less valuable than 1st rounders. Your view of them is skewed.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

It's a bit frustrating because I was perfectly prepared to wait for Bärtschi to continue to grow in the minors. Everyone including the prospects in Detroit know what their team is about and that they need to be patient, not look for a fast track solution.

Well it doesn't really matter if you were prepared to be patient because time had run out. Baertschi is waiver eligible next fall so you couldn't keep him in the minors any longer unless you wanted to lose him for nothing.

Last time I checked 2nd rounder >>>>>>> nothing.

Also Baertschi was refusing to re-sign with us so your level of patience is again irrelevant to the issue.

[dissentowner]

I can't believe how large the trade thread and then this thread has gotten. It doesn't matter if we dealt him away too soon or what he will develop into, he is a stinkin dirty Canuck now. I hope he fails miserably.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

2nd round picks have a lot more value than you think both in the draft and in trades.

According to Michael Schuckers’ 2011 data, the average 2nd-round draft pick plays about 200 NHL games. The exact averages by draft position range from 175 for the #60 pick to 255 for #31.

Whereas if Baertschi refused to re-sign with the Flames, the number of future NHL games he would play for them would be zero.

[Red Menace]

I dunno, I just did a quick look, and from 2001 to 2010 I found about 30 good NHLers picked between spots 45 and 60.
That's 30 out of 150 draft picks....so 1/5 chance at a good NHLer....
If it was a higher 2nd rounder (like the one Kipper was traded for), I'd guess the odds would be better.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I can't believe how large the trade thread and then this thread has gotten. It doesn't matter if we dealt him away too soon or what he will develop into, he is a stinkin dirty Canuck now. I hope he fails miserably.

Sports are about storylines. If all it were about was wins/losses for your own team we'd have nothing to talk about.

A heralded future hero turned disappointed young kid turned villain is a compelling storyline whether or not you wish it to be

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

I am going to let it go, I am usually not one to get involved in this nonsense, so I apologize....BUT....you are cherry picking some very rare cases there. We can list hundreds of picks after #50 that went nowhere.
Anyway, I hope this turns out to be one of those rare cases, and the Flames drafting has been pretty good lately so I certainly have hopes that it can yield something positive.
I don't agree with the organizations handling of Sven at all and think they really mismanaged a valuable asset at almost every step.
Anyway, onwards and upwards....

Sorry, how am I cherry picking? I listed only flames prospects drafted after the first round from 2010-2012. That's 7 players which are NHLers or likely will be next season. We have the same scouting staff for the most part, so there's no reason to think that drafting success in the later rounds can't continue.

I agree Sven was mismanaged at times, but a player who can crumble that easily is not made for the NHL.

[Jay Random]

Oh, I wouldn't call Baertschi a villain.

His agent, on the other hand, may just be Switzerland's answer to Snidely Whiplash.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

I dunno, I just did a quick look, and from 2001 to 2010 I found about 30 good NHLers picked between spots 45 and 60.
That's 30 out of 150 draft picks....so 1/5 chance at a good NHLer....
If it was a higher 2nd rounder (like the one Kipper was traded for), I'd guess the odds would be better.

I guess it depends if you think you have above average scouting or not.

Based on the last 5 years or so it looks to me like we have above average scouting. So I'm happy to take chances on a 2nd rounder in a deep draft.

Your analysis wasn't taking into account the strength of the drafts either. Several of those drafts you factored in had terrible 1st rounds and thus obviously bad 2nd rounders.

As I said, a 2nd in a deep draft with a good scouting staff likely has a far, far higher chance of becoming an impact NHLer than you calculated.

[Red Menace]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Sorry, how am I cherry picking? I listed only flames prospects drafted after the first round from 2010-2012. That's 7 players which are NHLers or likely will be next season. We have the same scouting staff for the most part, so there's no reason to think that drafting success in the later rounds can't continue.

If this was the oilers, you take the player 10 times out of 10.

Brodie & Bouma were drafted in 2008
Ortio in 2009

so you are really looking a 5 years of data....
Shall i list all the other players you omitted in those 5 years?

[Red Menace]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I guess it depends if you think you have above average scouting or not.

Based on the last 5 years or so it looks to me like we have above average scouting. So I'm happy to take chances on a 2nd rounder in a deep draft.

Your analysis wasn't taking into account the strength of the drafts either. Several of those drafts you factored in had terrible 1st rounds and thus obviously bad 2nd rounders.

As I said, a 2nd in a deep draft with a good scouting staff likely has a far, far higher chance of becoming an impact NHLer than you calculated.

I think looking at 10 years of draft data overcomes the strengths and weakness of any one particular year.
I agree with you that the Flames scouting has become good, even above average....but let's not get carried away about how valuable a pick at spot #50 is.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Sports are about storylines. If all it were about was wins/losses for your own team we'd have nothing to talk about.

A heralded future hero turned disappointed young kid turned villain is a compelling storyline whether or not you wish it to be

True, but if I hear one more play on Sven's name like Svensational I may scream. It has infiltrated every thread.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

Brodie & Bouma were drafted in 2008
Ortio in 2009

so you are really looking a 5 years of data....
Shall i list all the other players you omitted in those 5 years?

Fair enough, not sure why I said 2010..

But my point stands. There are plenty of players better then Oleg that have been recently drafted by the flames in the second round and higher.

2015 is also a very deep draft, so the usual 20% chance of drafting an NHLer with a 2nd round pick is probably lowballing the odds.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

True, but if I hear one more play on Sven's name like Sensational I may scream. It has infiltrated every thread.

That's fair