[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[T@T]

Originally Posted by FAN

Huh? Your one big point / your main point basically describes a young player. Consistently (especially in effort) is likely the most common and important attribute a player, especially a finesse typed skilled player, needs to learn in order to play in the NHL.

Some players get it and manage to put it all together. For example, Olli Jokinen was a guy who got it 5 years into his NHL career and eliminated his bust labels. Some players don't or at least only for a season or two (e.g. Alexandre Daigle).

Scotty Bowman heathy scratched Pavel Datsyuk a lot during his first 2 years. and he was already 22-23.

[Dajazz]

Originally Posted by FAN

Huh? Your one big point / your main point basically describes a young player. Consistently (especially in effort) is likely the most common and important attribute a player, especially a finesse typed skilled player, needs to learn in order to play in the NHL.

Some players get it and manage to put it all together. For example, Olli Jokinen was a guy who got it 5 years into his NHL career and eliminated his bust labels. Some players don't or at least only for a season or two (e.g. Alexandre Daigle).

Swoosh.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by T@T

Baertschi was demoted 3 times this season, Setoguchi got paid NHL money 14 times in the pressbox before they finally admitted it was a bad signing.

To even suggest Baertschi had a long rope on this team is laughable. Baertschi outplayed Setoguchi right from training camp.

"earned never giving" is a big steaming pile of

How do you account for Jooris, then? Or Gaudreau making the team? Bouma earning more ice time? These guys either fought tooth and nail (JJ, LB) or proved to be undeniable (JG). Sven did neither.

Despite all the back-checking issues and complaints about his compete level, if Baertschi had produced even half as much offense as Gaudreau did this season he would probably still be around. The fact is, for the last 2 seasons Baertschi did jack in the NHL on either side of the puck. He was deemed to be surplus to requirements and the team cashed-out on its investment before the asset depreciated any more.

It sucks, but you cannot argue with the logic – and you definitely cannot question the mantra of this team. Those boys on the ice have earned every bit of icetime they get.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I think it's more of an issue that Sven was in a special category of "Hartley do not like". Thus, in his case, "earned and not given" didn't apply in the same way as to others - he wasn't being graded on the same curve. Didn't just have to beat out others for a roster spot, but also had to overcome what seemed to be biases against him on behalf of decision-makers, who didn't put him in much of a position to earn anything.

This happens on almost every team, someone just doesn't click with what the coach wants, and in this case it happened to be Sven.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I think it's more of an issue that Sven was in a special category of "Hartley do not like". Thus, in his case, "earned and not given" didn't apply in the same way as to others - he wasn't being graded on the same curve. Didn't just have to beat out others for a roster spot, but also had to overcome what seemed to be biases against him on behalf of decision-makers, who didn't put him in much of a position to earn anything.

This happens on almost every team, someone just doesn't click with what the coach wants, and in this case it happened to be Sven.

Why do you think that?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

A combination of the ongoing sense I got from the way he was used while the saga was going on, and my experience watching hockey in the NHL over a number of years and seeing this happen repeatedly with different teams, coaches, and players - usually of the offensively gifted, non "gritty" variety. It happens so often it's almost a surprise when it doesn't, and to some extent you get the impression it had to be someone on this team, as on most all teams, eventually. Happened to be Sven.

In other words it's basically pure intuitive speculation you may ignore at your leisure.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

Swoosh.

Touche

Originally Posted by T@T

Scotty Bowman heathy scratched Pavel Datsyuk a lot during his first 2 years. and he was already 22-23.

Not quite sure about the relevancy here, but Bowman only coached Datsyuk for one year and Datsyuk was a rookie on a Cup winning team.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by T@T

Baertschi was demoted 3 times this season, Setoguchi got paid NHL money 14 times in the pressbox before they finally admitted it was a bad signing.

To even suggest Baertschi had a long rope on this team is laughable. Baertschi outplayed Setoguchi right from training camp.

"earned never giving" is a big steaming pile of

So you think Sven should had sat in the press box and Seto get sent down? Are you being intentionally ignorant to the difference in handling of a veteran reclamation project and a prospect, and how the two situations are comparable?

Sitting in the press box for Seto is just as big a demotion as the minors is for Sven. You need Sven playing somewhere if you are the Flames, you don't care about Seto playing. Not to mention the asset management component.

The fact that the Sven debate has regressed to people complaining that Seto got more press box time than him at the NHL level just shows how thin and un-defendable the Sven didn't get a shot argument has become. Miss actually laughable at this point.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

And this is why, outside of the Fanboyism that exists is the main reason why Flames fans might not love this deal.

The chances that Vancouver hits a home run out of this trade IMO is higher than the chances the Flames do. What I mean by that, is it is more likely that Sven puts it together with the change of scenery and becomes an impact / difference making player for the Canucks than it is the Flames select such a player with this 2nd round pick. However, I don't believe that either of those scenario's is likely.

Highest likely outcome is that this ends up being nothing more than a minor trade involving at best a couple of average assets. And as it sits now, I think this deal is slightly in favour of the Flames (and I do mean slightly) that the 2nd round pick becomes a better asset than Sven moving forward.

So, I think the Flames have the highest likely hood of winning what will be a minor deal, and the win isn't that big. But the Canucks have the better chance at hitting a home run with this than the Flames do.

LOL. I think you've got all the bases covered.

"The Flames probably won the deal unless Sven turns out to be a better player than expected. In that case, the Canucks win the deal."

[Obsidian]

So are the Canucks playing Sven on the big club (seeing the 47 Canucks jersey)? Haven't heard any news and too lazy to sift through all the sour posts in here.

Should be interesting seeing that he's waiver eligible now.

[jlh2640]

Hes not waiver eligible until next year

[Obsidian]

Next year, whatever. Can't keep track of all the rules, no matter how much I follow the game. Point was, is it Utica or Vancouver for Sven?

[getbak]

Utica.

Their jerseys are the same style as the Canucks, that's why they look the same from behind (although, you can see the Comets and AHL logos on the name plate, and NHL jerseys have the Reebok logo on the neck, not CCM).

[t0rrent98]

Gonna be weird seeing baertschi in a Nucks/Utica jersey. Is there another game where Utica plays Addy before the season ends?

[savardandjokinen]

Originally Posted by t0rrent98

Gonna be weird seeing baertschi in a Nucks/Utica jersey. Is there another game where Utica plays Addy before the season ends?

2 both in mid april

[Bingo]

I honestly hope the Flames move the Canucks 2nd round pick in a package to move u in the draft.

Vancouver's 2nd and the Flame's first or Vancouver's 2nd and another 2nd for a first.

It would avoid a specific player being compared to Baertschi's career for the rest of time.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I honestly hope the Flames move the Canucks 2nd round pick in a package to move u in the draft.

Vancouver's 2nd and the Flame's first or Vancouver's 2nd and another 2nd for a first.

It would avoid a specific player being compared to Baertschi's career for the rest of time.

I'm with you on that. There's a big potential for this thread staying active for years if they pick at that spot.

Once Treliving stated that Baertschi had asked for a trade, any trepidation I had about the move went out the window. Liked Baertschi. The fact that he was dealt to Vancouver makes it easier to move on. Still, ideally, someone outside the division pays the highest price. Just didn't happen that way.

[Azhouse]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I think it's more of an issue that Sven was in a special category of "Hartley do not like". Thus, in his case, "earned and not given" didn't apply in the same way as to others - he wasn't being graded on the same curve. Didn't just have to beat out others for a roster spot, but also had to overcome what seemed to be biases against him on behalf of decision-makers, who didn't put him in much of a position to earn anything.

This happens on almost every team, someone just doesn't click with what the coach wants, and in this case it happened to be Sven.

Are you Sven's Dad?

The coaches are unfair, they don't grade me on the same curve, the "decision-makers" are biased....my name is Sven.

Can we trade you to Vancouver as well? You would make a great Canucks fan.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

LOL. I think you've got all the bases covered.

"The Flames probably won the deal unless Sven turns out to be a better player than expected. In that case, the Canucks win the deal."

Haha, point wast to cover basis or make a prediction. Point was to simply suggest that Flames fans likely feel uncomfortable with this trade (if they do) because Vancouver likely holds the biggest upside potential from this trade, but that outcome is far from the mostly one in my opinion.

[CanadaMatt]

Sven = Kris Chuko

Let's move on shall we?