Prentice Blames Albertans

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

This Incorruptible, logical decision making Seafoam Party of Alberta. Someone send a fax, or telegram, or however the Liberal Party receives missives. I'm taking over.

Originally Posted by Jacks

The Liberal party is unlikely to ever have any success in Alberta, the brand is toxic. You may not think thats fair but that's the way it is. If he wasn't running under the Liberal banner Taft might have beat Stelmach, Decore certainly would have won after the disaster Getty left behind. If the Liberals changed their name and got a decent leader they could probably pull a bunch of soft PC voters into the fold. That they can't see this is mind bottling.

See Harry? What did I tell you.

The policies don't matter, it's the name and the colour of the banner.

The Liberals need to change their colour to Navy Blue (support the troops!) and call themselves the Liberal Conservative Party of Alberta.

Instant opposition.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The policies don't matter, it's the name and the colour of the banner.

Joke all you want but people do vote this way and will continue to vote this way.

Edit: I missed your first posts, I think we're on the same page? I'm lost in your sarcasm. The Liberal and NDP parties in Alberta could see instant improvements by changing their names and colours. Too many people think they're related to their federal counterparts. Social and Labour parties of Alberta?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Jacks

The Liberal party is unlikely to ever have any success in Alberta, the brand is toxic. You may not think thats fair but that's the way it is. If he wasn't running under the Liberal banner Taft might have beat Stelmach, Decore certainly would have won after the disaster Getty left behind. If the Liberals changed their name and got a decent leader they could probably pull a bunch of soft PC voters into the fold. That they can't see this is mind bottling.

Its funny because Decore was running a fiscally conservative campaign (he brought out a debt clock which has now been brought out by the CTF), and was winning until the last week. Most people agree that the reason he lost was because in that week they were asked about abortion and Klein gave the now famous "between a woman, her doctor and god" quote. Social conservatives flocked to Klein and the rest is history.

Weird how the brand wasn't toxic at that point. I also think that the Liberals have brought out some decent policies over the years and while a bunch of people are in favour of that policy here or there, they still vote PC for whatever reason. I don't think policy wins as many votes as it loses.

I was a Liberal supporter for years. Now this issue with the Alberta Party and whether they should merge just plain drove me away. My opinion is purely "you guys figure it out because I have other things to do with my life, and if I'm still interested when you do maybe I'll come back. Maybe not."

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Slava

Its funny because Decore was running a fiscally conservative campaign (he brought out a debt clock which has now been brought out by the CTF), and was winning until the last week. Most people agree that the reason he lost was because in that week they were asked about abortion and Klein gave the now famous "between a woman, her doctor and god" quote. Social conservatives flocked to Klein and the rest is history.

Weird how the brand wasn't toxic at that point. I also think that the Liberals have brought out some decent policies over the years and while a bunch of people are in favour of that policy here or there, they still vote PC for whatever reason. I don't think policy wins as many votes as it loses.

I was a Liberal supporter for years. Now this issue with the Alberta Party and whether they should merge just plain drove me away. My opinion is purely "you guys figure it out because I have other things to do with my life, and if I'm still interested when you do maybe I'll come back. Maybe not."

I had forgot about that abortion thing but I still believe that the Liberal brand was a hindrance to Decore. People were looking for an excuse to stick with what they knew rather than take a chance. It's not much different than the last election, the Wildrose was poised to win the election but people got cold feet over a contentious issue at the last moment.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by kevman

Joke all you want but people do vote this way and will continue to vote this way.

Edit: I missed your first posts, I think we're on the same page? I'm lost in your sarcasm. The Liberal and NDP parties in Alberta could see instant improvements by changing their names and colours. Too many people think they're related to their federal counterparts. Social and Labour parties of Alberta?

Heh, lost in my sarcasm.

The thing is, if it was a branding issue, it should be easy to fix and easy to poll, right?

Well, we should just ask those people who say there is no viable alternative if they would vote for progressive taxation, increase royalty rates, increased corporate tax rates and increased workplace and environmental regulations.

Put those things under a blue banner and Albertan's won't for it.

Just look at the gay/straight alliance thing. PC members voted against that because that's what their constituents told them to do. If a PC member had authored that motion, they would have been turfed.

It's a complete abdication of responsibility: "If someone wore a different coloured shirt, I would agree with their ideology, but instead, they are wearing a red shirt and so no, I can't agree that Gay/Straight Alliances in schools are a good idea. Because of the shirt colour."

Nah, Alberta voters vote for these guys because they represent what they want or they are less scary than the guy their neighbour wants.

[Flash Walken]

Slava/Jacks:

Wasn't the big momentum swing in the final week when Ralph said he'd cut MLA pensions?

Based on the conversation about teacher/doctor pay in this thread, that sort of tactic would probably still prove valuable.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

arithmetic sucks

Prentice is right, Albertans are to blame. Politically, they want services and don't want to pay for them. Their politicians thus reflect that.

Every human is like that everywhere. It's up to leaders to do what's needed, not what's wanted by people who are not in a position to know what they're talking about. We've had the latter, now our chickens are coming home to roost.

Then again - fool us once, shame on you, fool us for 43 years...

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Considering the Conservative Party has been running under a liberal fiscal policy, and conservative social policy for a few Premiers now, am I wrong in thinking that the Liberal Party would be a huge success if they adopted a conservative fiscal and liberal social platform?

Is the only reason that they don't actually do this some kind of outdated ideological stance?

Who do I phone up to become leader of that party? It couldn't be that hard. Maybe a skill testing question or something.

I think the majority of the Albertan populace resides exactly as that; fiscally conservative and socially moderate.

The Wildrose party failed to capture the social middle. And the the Liberal party has failed to capture any fiscal sanity.

Now Prentice seems to be moving the PC's back to their strongest position, and it could be a huge opportunity lost for the opposition parties, and all Albertans, for some fresh blood and ways of running things.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Slava/Jacks:

Wasn't the big momentum swing in the final week when Ralph said he'd cut MLA pensions?

Based on the conversation about teacher/doctor pay in this thread, that sort of tactic would probably still prove valuable.

I'm a bit hazy on the details but I do know that people were wanting change and at the time there were only 2 parties with a legitimate chance to choose from. Getty was such a fiscal mess people were willing to go to the Liberals even though the NEP years were still fresh in people's minds. Ralph took a hard turn right and promised balanced budgets and debt repayment which was what people wanted. The election finished 44.5% PC to 39.7% Lib, I personally think Decore could have pulled at least 5% (probably 10%) more without the Liberal baggage. IMO the majority of Albertans will back a party that is fiscally conservative as long as their social policy isn't too extreme in either direction.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

I think the majority of the Albertan populace resides exactly as that; fiscally conservative and socially moderate.

Is that a paradox?
http://dailyprincetonian.com/opinion...-conservative/
http://www.democraticunderground.com...ess=104x193667

Plenty of social conservatives in Alberta too.

And communists like me that think fiscal conservatism helps no one but the most wealthy amongst us.

[Flash Walken]

Ok, Jacks, but indulge me here.

"Fiscal conservative" is an essentially meaningless term. What is the judgement on 'conservative'? Is being 'conservative' automatically akin to being 'responsible'? Peter Lougheed's definition of conservative would probably differ significantly from the definition of today.

Using royalty revenue as part of the general budget to justify low taxes is definitely, definitively, 'ficaslly conservative', but is that a responsible way to govern the province's finances? I'd say it's fiscally irresponsible, but agree it is very conservative.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Ok, Jacks, but indulge me here.

"Fiscal conservative" is an essentially meaningless term. What is the judgement on 'conservative'? Is being 'conservative' automatically akin to being 'responsible'? Peter Lougheed's definition of conservative would probably differ significantly from the definition of today.

My definition would be something along the lines of small government, little to no debt or deficit (certainly not long term) and saving for the future.

People may roll their eyes when the subject of "belt tightening" or "efficiencies" is mentioned but I would think those people have no idea how the government actually operates, they don't do anything efficiently.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Using royalty revenue as part of the general budget to justify low taxes is definitely, definitively, 'ficaslly conservative', but is that a responsible way to govern the province's finances? I'd say it's fiscally irresponsible, but agree it is very conservative.

I wouldn't call that conservative at all. A large portion of resource revenues should be funnelled into the Heritage fund with a portion of the returns being used to fund larger infrastructure programs. I concede also that we may need to raise revenues to accomplish that but not without a clear plan to get spending under control first. Problem is that I don't trust the PC's anymore to do anything right and will not vote for them again until the entire party is purged.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Every human is like that everywhere. It's up to leaders to do what's needed, not what's wanted by people who are not in a position to know what they're talking about. We've had the latter, now our chickens are coming home to roost.

Then again - fool us once, shame on you, fool us for 43 years...

This proves Albertans are to blame.

Your saying that those who's very existence are a function of popular vote should damn well do something unpopular. Those people for the most part disappear, you know, because of the popular vote thing.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Jacks

People may roll their eyes when the subject of "belt tightening" or "efficiencies" is mentioned but I would think those people have no idea how the government actually operates, they don't do anything efficiently.
.

Governments are never going to be as efficient as market focused organizations. They lack the immediate feedback of a marketplace which tells them how to evolve properly.

And they also don't have the ability to efficiently be blown up when they really should and be reconstituted.

Having said that, the government could be a lot more efficient. But which Provincial Government is superior than Alberta's?

[Harry Lime]

I don't know if efficiency is as big a problem as lack of political will. Or instead of will, perhaps courage. We can talk as much as we want about waste and tightening our belts, or finding revenue through new taxes, but the amount of income that can be saved or accrued is a small fraction of what should already be available.

When the oilsands opened, contracts were agreed upon concerning royalties that were deemed fair by both sides. In the intervening years between then and now, there have been major loopholes exposed which have allowed oil companies to renege on the spirit of the original agreements.

The Provincial government has pretended that it doesn't have the power to close those loopholes. It does, if it had the will.

The flax income tax is a failure. It simply is. A progressive tax or some other substitute needs to be implemented, but politicians lack the courage to pass a change that would not benefit the financial contributors that put them in office.

We do not have a government, we have a room of politicians. Prentice has yet to prove himself any different than Redford or Stelmach or any other, until he does something more than shuffle the chairs.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by troutman

Is that a paradox?
http://dailyprincetonian.com/opinion...-conservative/
http://www.democraticunderground.com...ess=104x193667

Plenty of social conservatives in Alberta too.

And communists like me that think fiscal conservatism helps no one but the most wealthy amongst us.

Agreed, there's more studies all the time that shows strict fiscal conservativism just increases the wealth gap. For a real life study, just look south.

Some may not care so much, but when the gap gets too large, big social problems arise. Crime most notably. Not to mention if it gets to large, it's bad for the rich too.

However I think most would agree to look for a certain amount of fiscal responsibility. Money can be spent to make society better, but it needs to be spent wisely, with an eye to growing layers of administration and waste.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

"A progressive tax or some other substitute needs to be implemented, but politicians lack the courage to pass a change that would not benefit the financial contributors that put them in office."

The voters and the corporations make it pretty challenging for any policy maker who want to mess with the low-tax narrative of Alberta.

If the majority of the public and the business leaders acknowledged Alberta's sub-optimal taxation and investment strategy, the politicians wouldn't need balls of steel to pull off reasonable economic policies.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Governments are never going to be as efficient as market focused organizations. They lack the immediate feedback of a marketplace which tells them how to evolve properly.

Trust me, it's not even close. It's all about butt covering. The job that 1 person used to do in the 90's with 1 supervisor is now done by 3-4 people with 3-4 supervisors and everyone is totally focused on nothing blowing back on them. It is pathetically inefficient, they will have have 6 people spend a week modifing documents with multiple conference calls and meetings and change orders just to make sure their butt is covered. Back in the the late 90's one person made the decisions and it was done, end of story, and everyone knew the rules. I don't blame the front line workers, they are only trying to keep their jobs in a google world but the bureaucracy is pathetic these days, multiple levels of red tape and ass covering that makes everything cost 3 times as much. I'm not exaggerating, things today cost 3 times as much as they did 10 years ago due to the BS and bureaucracy.

[Tinordi]

This is the house that conservatism built. A broke province with incredible natural resource endowments.

And here we are complaining about civil servants.

Keep fighting the real enemy!

[killer_carlson]

Tweets from an Edmonton Journal reporter this afternoon...

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Alexandra Zabjek ‏@a_zabjek 3h3 hours ago
"Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's to blame for this shortfall?" - Leg demonstration pic.twitter.com/CreC3NDFY7



Alexandra Zabjek ‏@a_zabjek 3h3 hours ago
If you can't see the mirrors in that pic, they're all pointed at the Leg building. #ejlive

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