[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's the bolded part that I strongly disagree with. If he is going to succeed at the NHL level, he has to have a deeper game than what he currently has. Playing with 3rd line checking players is exactly what you do to teach young players that. The Flames were trying to help him and he threw it back at them.

The NHL has little room for "top 6 or bust" types of players unless their skill is absolutely unreal. His best chance at having a long and meaningful career is to develop other skills.

3rd line would have been fine. 4th line and 9 mins a night is not going to work for a player like Sven.

I guarantee he wasn't drafted to be a 9 minute a night checking line player.

[Cflames_12.5]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I think a crucial element is the fact that he was traded to not just a divisional rival, but emotionally, Calgary's biggest rival in the Canucks.

The trade itself is not so bad but the amount of regret/consternation will be compounded several times in the future if he becomes successful on our rival and it comes back to haunt us. We've seen this sort of thing before with Martin St. Louis (different circumstances but emotionally similar in terms of regret).

And if he was traded for a 4th or 5th round pick their would still be belly aching that management didn't get enough. The fact is Sven demanded a trade. This put Brad on the clock. Brad got the best asset he could.

Ask yourself would you rather lose Sven for a 2nd to the Canucks or something less and go to a different team. I think taking anything less then the best offer would be a mismanagement of assets.

[Phil Russell]

Something worth reiterating again, is that Sven's body of work was not only limited to the NHL games he played over three seasons, his body of evaluated work also included three seasons of training camp, practices and many many games in the AHL. The coaches saw him play lots, in lots of situations, and with lots of linemates. They gave him mucho chance to show his stuff, to prove himself. The organization didn't like what they saw, Sven got passed by others, the trade suits everyone's needs.

[GioforPM]

I don't think it was "regardless of how he performed". I think it was precisely because of his performance. A few good shifts won't change a history of 10 previous games, or poor performance in practice.

Hartley won't say "nice assist, Sven, you are now on the second line". "Earned" occurs over more than one game. And, in fact, in his better games, Sven got more than his average amount of time. Then he regressed again. The improvement never seemed to stick.

Also, both of the top lines this year saw lots of work against really good players. Monahan had to play the top line every night until Backlund got back, and since then they've split that duty. Sven has very little defensive prowess and would have been a liability.

Finally, Sven's slug linemates included a guy who previously scored fairly consistently in the NHL (who maybe could complain that he was similarly stuck on the bottom line with Sven), a guy who consistently creates grade A offensive chances (without a lot of finish, especially on breakaways), and Lance Bouma. Other than Bollig, no real slugs.

[Fire]

Durabilty appears to be an issue with Sven as well. I don't think he has had a completely healthy season since the Flames drafted him.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Isn't it a good thing that Sven was expendable? That just tells you how well we've drafted lately.

Sven needed a fresh start elsewhere, as did the Flames in focusing their efforts on our other prospects.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Nme-Territory

Why don't you just throw St. Louis in there for good measure.

I'm not sure what the point of this post is? Is there a point or are we supposed to believe that Baertschi and someone like Saprykin have something in common other than being ex-Flames. If that's the criteria for your list I can think of a couple more names.

There are a lot of players on that list that don't belong. You happened to pick one of the few that actually do. Saprykin was an 11th overall pick, Sven was a 13th.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Treliving: "Hmmmm - Sven has demanded a trade and says he won't re-sign. If I don't trade him now, and he continues that stance, I have to trade him just ahead of free agency, and we will get a 4th round pick, like we paid for Colborne. We are also in a playoff push, so every game counts.

So my decision is to experiment and put Sven, who has not produced at all in his stints this year, up in place of Glencross, a player he is nothing like, ahead of players who have earned either a promotion from the bottom 6 or from the minors."

Sounds like a plan.

The Flames would have had the right to match any NHL contract that Sven would have signed. If the worry is waivers that is different from free agency.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's the bolded part that I strongly disagree with. If he is going to succeed at the NHL level, he has to have a deeper game than what he currently has. Playing with 3rd line checking players is exactly what you do to teach young players that. The Flames were trying to help him and he threw it back at them.

That's your version of the narrative based on what you saw. I saw a guy that was flat out a better and more complete hockey player now than he was two years ago, regardless of what the numbers officially suggested, but due to the player he was before, he was now relegated to playing on a line centered by Brandon Bollig or Lance Bouma.

The kind of scenario where I don't know what you could really expect out of anyone, because Bollig is absolutely brutal and Bouma is simply a winger too.

Anyone-Bollig-Bouma

Now sure if you put a guy like Backlund on that line that can succeed because Backlund is a veteran NHL center who I think could be the 2nd best C on some VERY high level teams. Baertschi is a young winger still trying to make his mark. So it was just a line with three wingers that makes no sense. That's a checking line, but it's one that can't functionally get out of its zone without a 22 year old playing at an elite level. You wanna talk corsi? That's two guys who are under 40% on the season and yet Baertschi is supposed to pull miracles?

The only times he played with an actual center was when he was plopped in with Paul Byron, who is 35% on faceoffs this season and SMALLER than Sven. Oh, and the opposite winger on that line was Setoguchi, a guy who's had 25+ goal seasons before but could even register a single point all season.

Anyone-Byron-Setoguchi

That's not a checking line. It's just a crappy line set up for failure. And even then, they weren't nearly as bad as they should have been. Which some might call a miracle.

Is that a line set up to succeed? I don't think so.

The frustrating thing isn't that Sven was put on bottom lines, but that he was put on lines that are set up to fail regardless of whether he's Sven Baertschi or Johnny Gaudreau.

We have had centers this season who can play center functionally and let wingers play:

Monahan
Backlund
Stajan
Colborne
Jooris
Shore

Guys I'd be happy to have slotted Sven with on ANY line - 3rd, 4th. Of them, the only time Sven was put in a position to succeed was with Jooris for 4.5% of the season.

I can name which game that was too, it was the Winnepeg game and that line was successful. Sven later got a ticky tack call, found himself in the penalty box, and was effectively done for the game (and season) due to it.

I would have totally welcomed a 4th line of

Baertschi-Stajan-Bouma
Baertschi-Stajan-Colborne
Baertschi-Stajan-Wolf
Baertschi-Stajan-Ferland
Baertschi-Stajan-Byron
Baertschi-Stajan-Jooris

anything like that because they would have made sense. What we actually saw made no sense. Yes Stajan was out with injury but Jooris was still there. Corbin Knight was still there.

It seems Hartley punished Sven for not being a center or a big bruising winger.

It's not about Sven stepping up to the challenge of playing hard in the minutes he was given. It's about Sven being set up to fail.

As for the AHL, people are quick to point to "regressed stats" but fail to mention that sometimes guys are just snakebitten - and the entire ADK team was early in the season. Sven was scoreless in his first 7 games. That also means however that he's put up 26 points in his last 30 AHL games. What a lazy, terrible season he's had

I'm mostly just annoyed at the idea that "Sven didn't progress in the last two years". He's a better 2-way player now than he ever was in October 2013. And that was when he was throwing up a point every other game in the NHL.

That said, I'm pretty much done with this back and forth argument about Sven that won't actually conclude until he's either dropping 30/30 seasons as the next Zach Parise or looking to hopefully crack a roster in the Swiss National League A. No point whining about it anymore, but I guess you can say I expect Baertschi to blow up as a Canuck into a very solid Havlat type. I don't like the Canuck part one bit.

[foshizzle11]

I thought all this Sven drama would have been over by now, but I guess I will have to see this thread continue to be at the top of the list for a while.

There are a couple different groups on here it seems.

1. Some who don't care anymore, he is not a Flame anymore and is playing with the enemy.

2. Some who feel he was not given a fair shake and had to play with linemates who were not up to snuf and he was set to fail from the start.

3. Others who think he was given a fair shake, especially when paired with Monahan.

4. Those who think Sven will be the next big thing and score 30 goals a season.

5. Those who can't believe he was traded to the Canucks.

Am I missing any groups? I can see this topic beaten to death, if it hasn't been already 65 pages in.

I feel that he was given a fair shake to succeed here. He had the same opportunities to impress in the AHL, at practice in the NHL with the flames and in the game he got into. He didn't have to score a bunch of goals to move up the lineup, he just had to contribute and not make too many mistakes at both ends of the ice. Well, he didn't do what his coaching staff felt he had to. It is that simple, whether we like it or not.

If he is an entitled, young player who's dad meddles with his hockey career, then maybe he isn't the kind of guy we need around here. I hope he finds his feet in the NHL some day but I hope it isn't with the Canucks.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Originally Posted by Burke Salad

The guy I would like to hear from about all encompassing Sven is Todd Button, the guy that drafted him.

Funny you bring this up.

Last night, the Hamilton Bulldogs play-by-play guy interviewed Todd Button and asked about that specifically. Button was very hush-hush about it, but did say, "well, it's just one of those things where both the organization and the player need a change of scenery."

He didn't say much more than that other than he hopes Sven has a good career.

[Cflames_12.5]

Originally Posted by foshizzle11

I thought all this Sven drama would have been over by now, but I guess I will have to see this thread continue to be at the top of the list for a while.

There are a couple different groups on here it seems.

Some who don't care anymore, he is not a Flame anymore and is playing with the enemy.

Some who feel he was not given a fair shake and had to play with linemates who were not up to snuf and he was set to fail from the start.

Others who think he was given a fair shake, especially when paired with Monahan.

Am I missing any groups? I can see this topic beating to death, if it hasn't been already 65 pages in.

You missed two groups
Those who think Sven will be the next big thing and score 30 goals a season.

Those who can't believe he was traded to the Canucks.

[foshizzle11]

Originally Posted by Cflames_12.5

You missed two groups
Those who think Sven will be the next big thing and score 30 goals a season.

Those who can't believe he was traded to the Canucks.

Thanks, I will update that.

[fatso]

Originally Posted by foshizzle11

I thought all this Sven drama would have been over by now, but I guess I will have to see this thread continue to be at the top of the list for a while.

There are a couple different groups on here it seems.

1. Some who don't care anymore, he is not a Flame anymore and is playing with the enemy.

2. Some who feel he was not given a fair shake and had to play with linemates who were not up to snuf and he was set to fail from the start.

3. Others who think he was given a fair shake, especially when paired with Monahan.

4. Those who think Sven will be the next big thing and score 30 goals a season.

5. Those who can't believe he was traded to the Canucks.

Am I missing any groups? I can see this topic beaten to death, if it hasn't been already 65 pages in.

I feel that he was given a fair shake to succeed here. He had the same opportunities to impress in the AHL, at practice in the NHL with the flames and in the game he got into. He didn't have to score a bunch of goals to move up the lineup, he just had to contribute and not make too many mistakes at both ends of the ice. Well, he didn't do what his coaching staff felt he had to. It is that simple, whether we like it or not.

If he is an entitled, young player who's dad meddles with his hockey career, then maybe he isn't the kind of guy we need around here. I hope he finds his feet in the NHL some day but I hope it isn't with the Canucks.

you missed one more group. those that feel compelled to criticize others for discussing the topic, calling it a 'dead horse', then proceed to give their own two paragraph opinion, none of which is original or hasn't already been better articulated.

[foshizzle11]

Good, I am glad you are getting my point. Thanks.

[mdubz]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

That's your version of the narrative based on what you saw. I saw a guy that was flat out a better and more complete hockey player now than he was two years ago, regardless of what the numbers officially suggested, but due to the player he was before, he was now relegated to playing on a line centered by Brandon Bollig or Lance Bouma.

The kind of scenario where I don't know what you could really expect out of anyone, because Bollig is absolutely brutal and Bouma is simply a winger too.

Anyone-Bollig-Bouma

Now sure if you put a guy like Backlund on that line that can succeed because Backlund is a veteran NHL center who I think could be the 2nd best C on some VERY high level teams. Baertschi is a young winger still trying to make his mark. So it was just a line with three wingers that makes no sense. That's a checking line, but it's one that can't functionally get out of its zone without a 22 year old playing at an elite level. You wanna talk corsi? That's two guys who are under 40% on the season and yet Baertschi is supposed to pull miracles?

The only times he played with an actual center was when he was plopped in with Paul Byron, who is 35% on faceoffs this season and SMALLER than Sven. Oh, and the opposite winger on that line was Setoguchi, a guy who's had 25+ goal seasons before but could even register a single point all season.

Anyone-Byron-Setoguchi

That's not a checking line. It's just a crappy line set up for failure. And even then, they weren't nearly as bad as they should have been. Which some might call a miracle.

Is that a line set up to succeed? I don't think so.

The frustrating thing isn't that Sven was put on bottom lines, but that he was put on lines that are set up to fail regardless of whether he's Sven Baertschi or Johnny Gaudreau.

We have had centers this season who can play center functionally and let wingers play:

Monahan
Backlund
Stajan
Colborne
Jooris
Shore

Guys I'd be happy to have slotted Sven with on ANY line - 3rd, 4th. Of them, the only time Sven was put in a position to succeed was with Jooris for 4.5% of the season.

I can name which game that was too, it was the Winnepeg game and that line was successful. Sven later got a ticky tack call, found himself in the penalty box, and was effectively done for the game (and season) due to it.

I would have totally welcomed a 4th line of

Baertschi-Stajan-Bouma
Baertschi-Stajan-Colborne
Baertschi-Stajan-Wolf
Baertschi-Stajan-Ferland
Baertschi-Stajan-Byron
Baertschi-Stajan-Jooris

anything like that because they would have made sense. What we actually saw made no sense. Yes Stajan was out with injury but Jooris was still there. Corbin Knight was still there.

It seems Hartley punished Sven for not being a center or a big bruising winger.

It's not about Sven stepping up to the challenge of playing hard in the minutes he was given. It's about Sven being set up to fail.

As for the AHL, people are quick to point to "regressed stats" but fail to mention that sometimes guys are just snakebitten - and the entire ADK team was early in the season. Sven was scoreless in his first 7 games. That also means however that he's put up 26 points in his last 30 AHL games. What a lazy, terrible season he's had

I'm mostly just annoyed at the idea that "Sven didn't progress in the last two years". He's a better 2-way player now than he ever was in October 2013. And that was when he was throwing up a point every other game in the NHL.

That said, I'm pretty much done with this back and forth argument about Sven that won't actually conclude until he's either dropping 30/30 seasons as the next Zach Parise or looking to hopefully crack a roster in the Swiss National League A. No point whining about it anymore, but I guess you can say I expect Baertschi to blow up as a Canuck into a very solid Havlat type. I don't like the Canuck part one bit.

You'd be ok with leaving Sven on a 4th line that involves smart defensive play, back checking and large amounts of hustle? These are all qualities that Sven lacks. With a player like him, it's Top 6 or bust. His game is to score goals, and when he's not doing that, with his skillset, he's useless.

[AcGold]

A lot of people are worried about how Sven turns out but in reality it doesn't matter. It was apparent he simply wasn't going to work here. He was a skill player that didn't bring enough skill to fit the top 6 and he couldn't bring the energy of a bottom 6 so what was the point in keeping him? None. No hard feelings towards the guy but his story is not our issue now, never was going to work out here and we got an asset in return. If he turns out a 30 goal scorer oh well, not our issue anymore.

[JiriHrdina]

One more point - when you talk about earning ice time - a lot of that happens in practice.
And that's not something we really have visibility to.
But if the guy wasn't earning it during games, or in practice - how do you give me top 6 ice-time?

[mhsyyc]

Hard to believe the number of words written in this thread alone about Sven Baertschi.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by mhsyyc

Hard to believe the number of words written in this thread alone about Sven Baertschi.

I'm starting to wonder what comes first: 10,000 posts in this thread or Sven's 10th career goal...