Flames to announce plans to announce arena plans in the... future...

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

Sorry, I thought you were just talking about the remediation job ahead of them. They must have a pretty good idea if the cleanup required, I'm sure the city must have a study somewhere.

The land size they had to clean in Cochrane was huge...probably bigger than they will need for whatever they have planned....and it was creosote. Big job but once they got moving on it they went relatively quick.

Yeah. Also, more has to be done if you want residential uses. My understanding was Cochrane's site became commercial after?

[Daradon]

I would be as excited as anyone to have a new arena.

But let's all take a breath here.

The people the arena is going to help the most are the owners. Now, I have nothing against the ownership group of the Flames. In fact, I think they're among the best in the league. They were builders of the city and the franchise. They stuck here during the lean times and took losses. And they provide a relatively good product all things considered. They have never been shown to be greedy like some of the other owners in the league.

However, this new arena is pretty much for them. Not us. Yes it'll be new, and clean and flashy. It'll have new stores and restaurants and all sorts of bells and whistles.

But it'll be more expensive. Ticket prices will jump. There may be less seats at the expense of the boxes, which is the thinking of the builders nowadays. Hey, if we can add seats AND boxes, that'd be great. But I don't think that's what's going to happen. So it'll be even harder for families to go, lower incomes to go, students to go, etc. And I do think our national sport should be able to be enjoyed by everyone.

So, in thinking about it like that, I'm not in a huge rush. It's always nice to see new buildings in the city, especially centerpieces like this. But at a time when things are doing poorly economically, it might not be the thing we need right now.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Yeah. Also, more has to be done if you want residential uses. My understanding was Cochrane's site became commercial after?

If it's the west end, I can't see much residential added to the area, in addition to the two sports facilities, restaurants, bars and LRT/roadways. I believe Mewata is probably a protected building, as well.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If it's the west end, I can't see much residential added to the area, in addition to the two sports facilities, restaurants, bars and LRT/roadways. I believe Mewata is probably a protected building, as well.

Aside from the arena and some supporting retail, the use will for sure be primarily residential. Especially if they use a CRL, they'll need a high density of taxable uses to pay back the loan.

Mewata is pretty far away from this site.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Daradon

I would be as excited as anyone to have a new arena.

But let's all take a breath here.

The people the arena is going to help the most are the owners. Now, I have nothing against the ownership group of the Flames. In fact, I think they're among the best in the league. They were builders of the city and the franchise. They stuck here during the lean times and took losses. And they provide a relatively good product all things considered. They have never been shown to be greedy like some of the other owners in the league.

However, this new arena is pretty much for them. Not us. Yes it'll be new, and clean and flashy. It'll have new stores and restaurants and all sorts of bells and whistles.

But it'll be more expensive. Ticket prices will jump. There may be less seats at the expense of the boxes, which is the thinking of the builders nowadays. Hey, if we can add seats AND boxes, that'd be great. But I don't think that's what's going to happen. So it'll be even harder for families to go, lower incomes to go, students to go, etc. And I do think our national sport should be able to be enjoyed by everyone.

So, in thinking about it like that, I'm not in a huge rush. It's always nice to see new buildings in the city, especially centerpieces like this. But at a time when things are doing poorly economically, it might not be the thing we need right now.

My solution has always been to borrow a page from the soccer stadiums in Europe. Take 3,500 seats or so OUT of the stands in the lower bowl, behind the net. Make it standing room only. (Europeans call it terracing).

Make it general admission, and make the tickets $35 each.

It'll be a raucous crowd. And since they aren't neatly tucked away up in the nosebleeds at the top end of the saddle, they'll inspire the rest of the arena to get rowdy.

Owners still get boxes & high priced tickets all around, players get the support of actual loud fans, people on a budget still get to support their favorite team.

[johnnybegaudreau]

It's pretty simple.
10 years after the Dome was built it was obsolete by modern arena standards.
This is why the Flames haven't rushed any decisions on a new project. This is why they keep delaying. Think about it, while everyone has bene putting up arenas and stadiums from here to mars in the last 10 years. The Flames have been watching closey, gathering information, and projecting forwards. If anything, i'd rather they delay plans 10x then build a billion dollar arena/stadia complex and get it all wrong.

Last thing this city needs is a giant cowboy hat structure being erected in the middle of our city. You think Western Night is bad now... lol. Hyperbole aside, my point is you don't want an ugly eye sore. You don't want the West Village site to remain with the same problems it has, infrastructure wise, if this is where the arena is indeed going to be built. You want to do your due diligence and ensure that if you're going to put a district of any kind in that spot you have room for growth in 20 or 30 years from now and that on top of the remediation problems this is going to take time. My guess is plans have changed about a dozen times in the last 10 years.

Just a note on the Cresote. The area that's infected is actually a very small area of ground water near the river bed. I am sure the process is no easy deal to handle, however, the actual area is not as big as it seems or sounds. Plus the city has already conducted the studies on how to remediate this area so that's all been done.

Last point. The city just purchused, a couple weeks ago the GSL land for 34 or 35 mill. I believe they already own the greyhound land. I'm not sure about the area around the pumphouse theater though.

[dammage79]

So in two weeks all the speculation will end. I cannot wait to see what they have lined up for a new barn.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

My solution has always been to borrow a page from the soccer stadiums in Europe. Take 3,500 seats or so OUT of the stands in the lower bowl, behind the net. Make it standing room only. (Europeans call it terracing).

Make it general admission, and make the tickets $35 each.

It'll be a raucous crowd. And since they aren't neatly tucked away up in the nosebleeds at the top end of the saddle, they'll inspire the rest of the arena to get rowdy.

Owners still get boxes & high priced tickets all around, players get the support of actual loud fans, people on a budget still get to support their favorite team.

I like the idea, but I wonder if it would work in an arena. Stadiums are not only shaped differently, but generally a lot larger. Also, there's the roof dilemma. But it's a good idea. One for the architects to figure out.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

My solution has always been to borrow a page from the soccer stadiums in Europe. Take 3,500 seats or so OUT of the stands in the lower bowl, behind the net. Make it standing room only. (Europeans call it terracing).

Make it general admission, and make the tickets $35 each.

It'll be a raucous crowd. And since they aren't neatly tucked away up in the nosebleeds at the top end of the saddle, they'll inspire the rest of the arena to get rowdy.

Owners still get boxes & high priced tickets all around, players get the support of actual loud fans, people on a budget still get to support their favorite team.

No one builds soccer stadiums without seats anymore. There are some standing room areas in a couple Baseball and Football stadiums, but it's rare.

[Muta]

Doesn't Safeco Field in Seattle have a grassy portion for people to sit on way up in the nosebleeds? Or am I delusional on this?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by dammage79

So in two weeks all the speculation will end. I cannot wait to see what they have lined up for a new barn.

Same day as the update to the Coyotes situation I'm sure.

[You Need a Thneed]

I beleive there are quite a few baseball and football stadia in the US that have places for standing room only.

[Rollin22x]

Originally Posted by Daradon

But at a time when things are doing poorly economically, it might not be the thing we need right now.

Sometimes the poor economic times present favourable opportunities.
Rates for everything from engineering, design, materials and labour can be negotiated a little lower which would provide worthwhile savings. That could also mean saving the public some money as well.

Build when it's a boom and pay the increased price of the current supply and demand.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Rollin22x

Sometimes the poor economic times present favourable opportunities.
Rates for everything from engineering, design, materials and labour can be negotiated a little lower which would provide worthwhile savings. That could also mean saving the public some money as well.

Build when it's a boom and pay the increased price of the current supply and demand.

I've used that argument when it comes to infrastructure, I totally get what your saying. I wonder if it means as much for private projects though. I really don't know. I have a feeling a high end centerpiece project like an arena might not change much. But I admit, I could be wrong. It'd actually be interesting to find out.

Anyone have any idea on how to do that?

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Yeah. Also, more has to be done if you want residential uses. My understanding was Cochrane's site became commercial after?

Yep. All commercial.

[Rollin22x]

Originally Posted by Daradon

I've used that argument when it comes to infrastructure, I totally get what your saying. I wonder if it means as much for private projects though. I really don't know. I have a feeling a high end centerpiece project like an arena might not change much. But I admit, I could be wrong. It'd actually be interesting to find out.

Anyone have any idea on how to do that?

I think private project even more so. Public projects always appear to have massive cost and schedule over-runs and we as the public never see what if any penalties there are. Private contracts have penalties in the contract for cost and schedule overruns. I think that public money is not money that is earned like a typical business, it's just collected, and therefore not handled with the same care.

[fundmark19]

Originally Posted by Muta

Doesn't Safeco Field in Seattle have a grassy portion for people to sit on way up in the nosebleeds? Or am I delusional on this?

You are delusional! However lots of spring training facilities still have the grassy seats

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Rollin22x

I think private project even more so. Public projects always appear to have massive cost and schedule over-runs and we as the public never see what if any penalties there are. Private contracts have penalties in the contract for cost and schedule overruns. I think that public money is not money that is earned like a typical business, it's just collected, and therefore not handled with the same care.

A lot of the arena will be built with public money though, (even though it's technically private) so I still wonder. But what your saying does make sense.

Would love to see a side by side comparison. If it's true we could save 15% or more, it could be worth it. Course, that would never happen.

[Barnes]

Take out a bunch of the most expensive club seats that generate a larger percentage NHRR for owners than cheaper seats because soccer.

Barclay's has a standing room that looks out from the concourse level behind some seats but don't know if it's open with the hockey configuration.


MSG has bar stool seating.


Roger's Place is supposed to have something similar.


Quebec has cool open concourses. You'll notice the absence of tunnels needed to get to seats and ticket holders are able to see inside the arena from everywhere on the concourse.


Any innovative seating changes will no doubt carry a premium and identified as a club of some sort. It allows owners to capture a higher percentage of revenue.

Football though... There's patio style seating examples in Winnipeg, Hamilton and the new one in Saskatchewan.

Tim Hortons Field

[Locke]

That patio one is awesome if you dont actually care about the game.