[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

That's some nice spinning

Okay, straight up, do you disagree with the assertion that two situations are different?

I'll clear it up even more. One simple question.

Is Giordano going to the KHL, but not asking for a trade, the same as Baertschi asking for a trade and telling the team he would play in Europe in 15/16 rather than re-sign as an RFA?

Yes or no please

[FlamesAddiction]

I remember training camp from last season and an interview Baertschi had. They talked to him about potentially playing with Monohan right out of junior and Baertschi responding by saying that it would be that would be great to play with him but that going to the minors would be good for Monahan too because it would help him prepare for the NHL like it did for himself. Shortly after that, it was Baertschi sent down and Monahan established himself as an NHL player.

Not that I think Baertschi said anything too controversial or negative, but it must have stung him right in the pride to be so sure that that he was ahead of Monahan (a player fresh out of the OHL) only to find out that he wasn't.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

"I don't think things are working out for me here, so I'd like it if you could find a way to move me. If not, I'm due for a new contract next year anyway, and I'll look elsewhere to get a fresh start then."

"I DEMAND you trade me to another team! I will not be re-signing and I will NEVER play for this organization under any circumstances!"

Both are plausible guesses as to how this went down. You chose to cast it as the latter. Gosh, I wonder why?

I guess I worded it poorly, you're right. We might as well argue over that rather than the subject at hand.

[Poe969]

"Trade me. I want to be on another team where I have a chance to play and I won't sign here next year.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

I guess I worded it poorly, you're right. We might as well argue over that rather than the subject at hand.

The facts have already been laid out, you've been adding colour to them for pages.

All we know Baertschi didn't want to sign likely because he felt he wasn't going to get a chance.

You keep adding "selfish", "egocentric", "wear that icky jersey", "said he'd never pay for Calgary again", etc, etc, etc

If you don't add your spin here, there's no argument to have.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Besides Feaster, I really can't fault any of the management for Baertschi's downfall. He was obviously rushed, and perhaps that led to Sven's issues. I just don't see how Burke or especially Treliving are to blame here. If anything, they were trying to undo Feaster's hyping/rushing him and shrink his head a bit. Damage was already done.

In this case, I would say it is less Feaster and more Sutter. Given how bare our cupboard was, Feaster didn't have a huge choice at the time. That being said, he did start his first pro year in the AHL, and had 26 points in 32 games. That is worthy of a recall when the lockout resolved, I think. But injury slowed him down, and he never really got on the right track.

Cleveland Steam Whistle makes what is probably the most astute point in this entire thread, I think. It is very easy to believe that Sven struggles when faced with adversity. And since Hartley's style is centred around creating hurdles to be overcome, it is also easy to see why those two never got along.

Given that, and given this organization is not led by people who will coddle you, that also argues that Baertschi was just a depreciating asset in our organization. We'll see what he does with a fresh start.

[GioforPM]

Assuming Treliving doesn't lie and thus far there's no evidence to say he does:

After being among the last cuts from Calgary's camp in the fall, he's spent the bulk of the season in the minors, seeing action in only 15 NHL games, during which he's collected just four assists.
Thus, a request was made for a trade.
“That's not uncommon,” Treliving said. “That's not a slight on the player. He'd gone through some things, obviously hoping and wishing there was more time in Calgary than he'd had. The other part of this is that you have to look at is the progression of some of the other young players that have come up and done well, and in some cases moved past Sven.
“More recently, in recent weeks, Sven's representative made it clear that he did not have any intention of re-signing with us. Sven's coming to the end of an entry-level contract, so he'd be a restricted free-agent this year, and his desires were not to return. Again, that's not the first time a player has done that and you don't, what I feel, react or over-react to those situations. We looked hard in the market to see if there was a fit for him and value, and the deal that we got was the best deal that was out there.
“Not that there was pressure or urgency to do something now. We felt the return we got was the best based on conversations over a long period of time, not over the course of the last number of hours.”

http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/03/02...oining-canucks

[dammage79]

What do we figure the money would have been for an offer sheet on Sven since he did not want to sign here? I don't think there'd be an offer sheet in the 1.6m a year range for him. Thus I think Treliving got the best deal.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Personally, I think he is getting bad advice

This.Lindros never got a cup because of daddy (though if he goes to Quebec, who is to say they ever end up with the cup. Team would have been pretty loaded still... but), Hodgson now toils in Buffalo, looking forward to his first buy-out at the ripe age of 25 because daddy thought he should be ahead of Kesler on the depth chart.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

This.

He's played for Hartley, Sutter, Ward and now Huska.

Ward had some stuff to say about him, Huska mentioned his attitude has improved. Nobody has raved about him. Hartley, not so impressed, Sutter I can't really remember.

Further, he's also been seen by a total of four GM's: Sutter, Feaster, Burke and now Treliving.

He hasn't managed to stick in the NHL, nor stand out in the AHL, during any of these persons' watchful eyes. He's been given ample (or rather, same as everybody else) chance to prove he belongs.

Further... get your facts straight. He never had Sutter as a GM.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Okay, straight up, do you disagree with the assertion that two situations are different?

I'll clear it up even more. One simple question.

Is Giordano going to the KHL, but not asking for a trade, the same as Baertschi asking for a trade and telling the team he would play in Europe in 15/16 rather than re-sign as an RFA?

Yes or no please

No. It is a completely different management regime and practically a decade later.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Cleveland Steam Whistle makes what is probably the most astute point in this entire thread, I think. It is very easy to believe that Sven struggles when faced with adversity. And since Hartley's style is centred around creating hurdles to be overcome, it is also easy to see why those two never got along.

Given that, and given this organization is not led by people who will coddle you, that also argues that Baertschi was just a depreciating asset in our organization. We'll see what he does with a fresh start.

Yeah, for sure. I think the player development strategy for this club (and many others) is to challenge the players and see which ones persevere. I felt that when Baertschi was sent down to the minors early this season, they really wanted to see him play with outright defiance on the farm. He failed that challenge miserably and instead kicked some dirt around for a long time. If he had gone down and wrecked the AHL for a couple of weeks, I would bet that he would have been recalled immediately.

Maybe coddling him will work for the Canucks. They seem to good at developing those types. I just don't see how the Flames can make one prospect a golden boy while making others overcome obstacles.

[Righteous1]

Sven was our best prospect in a while and got hyped up with all the excitement. Now we have better prospects, that outplayed him. This is a good deal for Van if he pans out and since our drafting has been improving, we could probably end up with a decent pick in the second round.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

I think there is too much negative speculation about Sven's character and it's disappointing to read.

The kid was straight up with the organization. There are no indications that he quit on the Flames. Even did nice charity work with the DQ thing. He has a contract, never violated it, and forewarned the Flames regarding his intentions for the future.

And if his agent convinced him to take this approach, there's nothing wrong with that. The agent has to advocate for the player, and with the contract situation where it is, what they've done is forthright, ethical and reasonable.

I don't see anything here that warrants some of the aspersions cast his way. Sounds like some people are simply bitter at Sven that he may not (yet) be as amazeballs a player as they dreamed.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The facts have already been laid out, you've been adding colour to them for pages.

All we know Baertschi didn't want to sign likely because he felt he wasn't going to get a chance.

You keep adding "selfish", "egocentric", "wear that icky jersey", "said he'd never pay for Calgary again", etc, etc, etc

If you don't add your spin here, there's no argument to have.

Apologize if I'm detracting from your ability to enjoy the thread, I have been told in the past my writing style can come off as too passionate at times (long before I ever posted here). Didn't mean to offend, I will try to make it less colorful. Just the way I write, not necessarily my emotional state.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

While true, that doesn't necessarily mean he is egocentric or selfish. Personally, I think he is getting bad advice, most likely from his father. Dad's attitude is that Baertschi deserves an NHL spot now and has gone out of his way to ensure the world knows. Guaranteed he is telling Baertschi the same things.

So when you have guy who is still quite impressionable, who is frustrated at being demoted (as anyone would be), and is hearing from a trusted source that he deserves better, it becomes easy to believe. End result is that Sven doesn't go down to the AHL with a good attitude (implied by comments from minor league coaches that "his attitude has improved"), that cycles back up to Burke, Treliving and Hartley, and the whole thing snowballs.

So the questions going forward for Vancouver are (1) how do they manage daddy's ego, and (2) what happens if the Canucks expect structured play out of Sven tha the still isn't willing to do, and (3) what happens if they give him his top-six role and he fails to produce?

The Canucks feel he is worth the risk of a 2nd rounder. But what they are saying now is what we were saying three years ago. They have the advantage that he is three years more mature, physically and mentally.

I think the Canucks have three things that make this possibly less of a mistake for them than these projects usually are, they have Svens old coach from the last time he was playing well, so they assume, probably rightly, that he will be easier to 'fix', that there's established trust and also a built in counter to outside influences.

That Calgary didn't work out means both dad, Sven and the agent know this is potentially his last chance, regardless of whether they agree with his ice time role etc, he has to make this work to a large degree. That may well concentrate his attention on things.

They also have the twins playing well, I suspect the back up plan, if it looks like he isn't really getting it together, will be to play Sven with the twins for a while, they are great at making line mates look good, then they would then trade him as part of a package, I could see a Sven plus Kassian being attractive to a GM with serious injury issues or trying to retool on the fly.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Apologize if I'm detracting from your ability to enjoy the thread, I have been told in the past my writing style can come off as too passionate at times (long before I ever posted here). Didn't mean to offend, I will try to make it less colorful. Just the way I write, not necessarily my emotional state.

I'm not offended, I just think that your "passion" is painting Baertschi to be something he simply isn't, it at the very least there's zero evidence to suggest he is. I'm not angry or upset, I just disagree with your view on who Sven is.

Edit: and I meant the argument we've been having for a couple pages is about what I just said above. If you remove the characterization of Baertschi, we don't disagree

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

That Calgary didn't work out means both dad, Sven and the agent know this is potentially his last chance, regardless of whether they agree with his ice time role etc, he has to make this work to a large degree. That may well concentrate his attention on things.

I disagree there. If it doesn't work with Vancouver, Sven will probably follow the path of Erixon - going from organization to organization, but always getting looks in the NHL. His raw tools are enough to keep him in the picture even if he never quite figures it all out.

[savardandjokinen]

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/3/3/when...sven-baertschi

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

"I don't think things are working out for me here, so I'd like it if you could find a way to move me. If not, I'm due for a new contract next year anyway, and I'll look elsewhere to get a fresh start then."

"I DEMAND you trade me to another team! I will not be re-signing and I will NEVER play for this organization under any circumstances!"

Both are plausible guesses as to how this went down. You chose to cast it as the latter. Gosh, I wonder why?

You're delusional if you think it went the latter. Baertschi's agent has a history of this and is by delivering an ultimatum. When the GM says there was no potential for negotiation that tells you the tenor of the situation.