[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I also think he sees time down the stretch, but you would think with all their injuries that hole would be there right now. I wonder if they think he is too fragile to throw in right away.

There's also the AHL roster cutoff date that they had to consider. Mind you, they can recall him now.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Am I the only one who thinks that the Diaz signing counts as a pretty successful pickup?

I think this shows some pretty low standards.

Diaz is a 6/7 guy thrust into a 5/6 role and holding his own, but that's a run of the mill signing, pairing depth.

It's not a bad signing, but it's a reach as a 'pretty successful pickup' in regards to whether Treliving is doing a good job or not.

So far some of the contracts signed by Treliving don't look great: Raymond, England appear to be significantly overpaid. At this point though with the team in the position it's in and with the capspace available, it makes sense to pay a price to bring in legit NHLers.

So far where he has shone is with the Brodie contract, and in trades. This deadline was a great deadline for Calgary that probably could have been even better were it not for a couple of ill-timed injuries.

Not trying to run you down, just that the same thing happened with Feaster, where minor things started being hyped as 'successful' moves, like Byron.

I don't give much credit for just filling out the roster. If Diaz was playing Top 4 minutes for Calgary and Calgary was in a playoff spot as a result, then yeah, it's a successful signing. As it is, he's a journeyman filling a journeyman's role; he's doing what he was brought in to do, no more, no less.

[automaton 3]

Sven wanted out and this was the best offer on the table. I think the Flames did the best they could with the circumstances.

Sven has NHL skill but his head has not been in the right place. Maybe he'll turn it around with a fresh start. Maybe he'll be a Swiss league star two years from now...who knows.

Flames have 4 picks in the first ~50 and 2 more around 80 as it stands. Looking at the initial draft lists there should be some really good players available to the Flames, and this draft could potentially set up the franchise for a decade.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think this shows some pretty low standards.

Diaz is a 6/7 guy thrust into a 5/6 role and holding his own, but that's a run of the mill signing, pairing depth.

It's not a bad signing, but it's a reach as a 'pretty successful pickup' in regards to whether Treliving is doing a good job or not.

So far some of the contracts signed by Treliving don't look great: Raymond, England appear to be significantly overpaid. At this point though with the team in the position it's in and with the capspace available, it makes sense to pay a price to bring in legit NHLers.

So far where he has shone is with the Brodie contract, and in trades. This deadline was a great deadline for Calgary that probably could have been even better were it not for a couple of ill-timed injuries.

Not trying to run you down, just that the same thing happened with Feaster, where minor things started being hyped as 'successful' moves, like Byron.

I don't give much credit for just filling out the roster. If Diaz was playing Top 4 minutes for Calgary and Calgary was in a playoff spot as a result, then yeah, it's a successful signing. As it is, he's a journeyman filling a journeyman's role; he's doing what he was brought in to do, no more, no less.

Fair enough.

But I think you are overlooking the point I was making in the rest of my post. And that is that Treliving has been doing as he should. It is no surprise that none of the Flames FA pickups are blowing the doors off, because none of them are the sorts of players who can—those sorts of players usually come with a very high price tag attached.

Treliving deserves credit for being patient and for being cautious. He has been exactly what this team needs at this point in time. In another year, two, or three we will see how smart and savvy he is at reading the market and manipulating it to the team's needs; but that shouldn't happen until the team is under more intense pressure to perform better.

All that to say, I don't really have any complaints about the job Treliving has done so far.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Fair enough.

But I think you are overlooking the point I was making in the rest of my post. And that is that Treliving has been doing as he should. It is no surprise that none of the Flames FA pickups are blowing the doors off, because none of them are the sorts of players who can—those sorts of players usually come with a very high price tag attached.

Treliving deserves credit for being patient and for being cautious. He has been exactly what this team needs at this point in time. In another year, two, or three we will see how smart and savvy he is at reading the market and manipulating it to the team's needs; but that shouldn't happen until the team is under more intense pressure to perform better.

All that to say, I don't really have any complaints about the job Treliving has done so far.

This. What has Treliving missed on this year? Not getting Phil Kessell? At the price they were demanding from Detroit? What UFA goalie was better than Hiller at that price and term?

I like that Treliving has stuck to his guns on the Rebuild even in the tight playoff hunt. And his returns for two guys who wanted out was pretty good.

On the original thought about Diaz, he's looking like a better and better signing, especially when you consider he was just a PTO.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

NHL GMs clearly think Connelly is a better prospect at this point than Baertschi. Or do you not believe that a 2nd was by far the best offer on the table for Treliving?

While I'm not a huge Connelly fan he has twelve real genuine NHL goals this year. It's not even a case of being a better prospect, it's about being a better NHL player period.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

Sven wanted out and this was the best offer on the table. I think the Flames did the best they could with the circumstances.

Sven has NHL skill but his head has not been in the right place. Maybe he'll turn it around with a fresh start. Maybe he'll be a Swiss league star two years from now...who knows.

Flames have 4 picks in the first ~50 and 2 more around 80 as it stands. Looking at the initial draft lists there should be some really good players available to the Flames, and this draft could potentially set up the franchise for a decade.

Considering the trajectory of this team up to this point, which is the cusp of a potential playoff birth, I have to think this the final draft to really get the right prospects into the system. There probably won't be any more top 5 picks -- it'll be about developing the prospects that you have and creating competition amongst them so that they push each other harder to get to the NHL (contrast that with the Oiler model of picking a "savior", putting him in the NHL, and then surrounding him with garbage).

Perhaps that was the issue with Sven -- he immediately became the star prospect and there wasn't much internal competition to push him along until the last couple of years. By that time, he was simply waiting for his number to get called while other prospects passed him by.

[dino7c]

the fact that Connelly has more NHL goals this season than Sven has AHL goals makes me wonder why this debate even exists.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I agree with a lot of what Textric said about Treliving. Given the Flames situation, he really only had 2 options, make huge mistakes or not blow you away with anything because the Flames aren't in that spot to do that yet. Treliving has stayed the course and no screwed it up, whichever is good, but it also means he's yet to be really tested, that comes later.

I also think critiquing the dollars on Engelland and Raymond is useless. Are they slight overpayments, yes. Did Treliving likely know this, yes IMO. Those aren't overpayments he'd makevif we were cap strapped, nor would he gave to because the Flames as a competitive team likely doesn't need to entice lower end UFAs to play here by over paying. Those contracts reflect the Flames situation when they were signed, an unappealing destination with tones of cap space. Don't think until proven otherwise that we should assume Treliving would sign those type of deals down the road when the Flames are competitive and need to be more cap conscious.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I agree with a lot of what Textric said about Treliving. Given the Flames situation, he really only had 2 options, make huge mistakes or not blow you away with anything because the Flames aren't in that spot to do that yet. Treliving has stayed the course and no screwed it up, whichever is good, but it also means he's yet to be really tested, that comes later.

Although, I do think it is fair to say that he has endured some testing by staying the course when he could have succumbed to pressure and taken bigger risks. It can't be easy to maintain such a mercurial visage in the face of all the excitement this team has generated this year.

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I also think critiquing the dollars on Engelland and Raymond is useless. Are they slight overpayments, yes. Did Treliving likely know this, yes IMO. Those aren't overpayments he'd makevif we were cap strapped, nor would he gave to because the Flames as a competitive team likely doesn't need to entice lower end UFAs to play here by over paying. Those contracts reflect the Flames situation when they were signed, an unappealing destination with tones of cap space. Don't think until proven otherwise that we should assume Treliving would sign those type of deals down the road when the Flames are competitive and need to be more cap conscious.

Like it or not, I think the Flames are probably a better team with Engelland, Bolland, and Raymond in the lineup this season than without them.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

While I'm not a huge Connelly fan he has twelve real genuine NHL goals this year. It's not even a case of being a better prospect, it's about being a better NHL player period.

Originally Posted by dino7c

the fact that Connelly has more NHL goals this season than Sven has AHL goals makes me wonder why this debate even exists.

More goals than Glencross, Jones and Jooris.

[FlamesAddiction]

Not that HF is the ultimate authority on anything, but it is interesting that they already have him classified as a graduated prospect. They must fancy him as a minor league player at this point.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Not that HF is the ultimate authority on anything, but it is interesting that they already have him classified as a graduated prospect. They must fancy him as a minor league player at this point.

50+ NHL games = no longer a prospect at HF

[CalgaryFan1988]

I'm happy the Flames didn't get Connolly, all of the Connelly jerseys would look funny in the crowd.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

More goals than Glencross, Jones and Jooris.

Stop being a JERK!

[MacFlame]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

I guess that's the question then, does Hartley give a player like Sven more ice time to give him a chance and hope he breaks out, or do you wait for him to show you something and then move him up?

I'm a fan of the latter, because I think if you give a player prime ice time when he doesn't really deserve it then other players take notice and you can lose the respect of your players. A guy like Jooris clearly forced Hartley's hand, Sven didn't. I don't think that's a coaching issue, I think that a player's responsibility. So many young players getting chances with this team over the past year or two, Sven had all the opportunities in the world to force the team to keep him and give him decent ice time, he just never got to the point where he played well enough to keep him over other younger players. He was just 'meh' for me most of the time, it's too bad. With a young rebuilding team this was probably the perfect opportunity for Sven to stick in the NHL full time, he just couldn't get it done. Maybe he will in Vancouver.

I think that's over-generalizing the situation somewhat. I think there are specific instances and situations in which you can give a rookie an opportunity. I think that if you miss that opportunity on a consistent basis, it sends a poor message to the player. Clearly, in this case, that's the message that Sven received.

In my opinion, Sven's leash was short for reasons I haven't figured out or am aware of. The leash was short for Backlund too under previous coaching regimes. Given an appropriate opportunity, Backlund was finally able to rise to the occasion....we'll never know if Sven would be able to do the same.

It's too bad, but the Flames and Sven will move on and other players will receive opportunities down the road.

[Flash Walken]

I'm still stunned about the return.

Would never have had that pegged as a trade Calgary makes on Deadline Day.

Might be one of the top trades of the day in terms of getting more than perceived value.

Benning so far has sure shunned picks, dealing 2nds and 3rds on consecutive years for players playing bottom 6 roles.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Benning so far has sure shunned picks, dealing 2nds and 3rds on consecutive years for players playing bottom 6 roles.

General Managers for Dummies by D Sutter.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MacFlame

...In my opinion, Sven's leash was short for reasons I haven't figured out or am aware of. The leash was short for Backlund too under previous coaching regimes. Given an appropriate opportunity, Backlund was finally able to rise to the occasion....we'll never know if Sven would be able to do the same.

It looked to me like the leash for Baertschi was short because he didn't often do a very good job of establishing his presence in a game by the end of the first period. Coach Hartley tends to use the first twenty mins. to set the line up for the rest of the game—players that are "on" get more ice time in the second period. If they continue to produce good returns (not just on the scoreboard, but all over the ice), then he gives them more ice time in the third. I think almost every time I watched Baertchi play this season he didn't look any better than average. He was often not bad, but he was never great—he never took a shift in the first period that commanded my attention and made me go, "wow." Other rookies have done that this season. It's the same leash, and several of them managed to yank it out of Hartley's grip. Baertschi didn't.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It looked to me like the leash for Baertschi was short because he didn't often do a very good job of establishing his presence in a game by the end of the first period. Coach Hartley tends to use the first twenty mins. to set the line up for the rest of the game—players that are "on" get more ice time in the second period. If they continue to produce good returns (not just on the scoreboard, but all over the ice), then he gives them more ice time in the third. I think almost every time I watched Baertchi play this season he didn't look any better than average. He was often not bad, but he was never great—he never took a shift in the first period that commanded my attention and made me go, "wow." Other rookies have done that this season. It's the same leash, and several of them managed to yank it out of Hartley's grip. Baertschi didn't.

Even when Baertschi had the game where he had two primary assists, he barely got any ice time in the third period. He was one of the better Flames that game.

I think a lot of people need to stop believing that coaches don't pick favorites. Even the best coaches in the league prefer one player over another for a myriad of reasons beyond just their play on the ice.