[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

Not a great trade. Come to think of it, most of Brad Treliving's move have been a resounding "meh." His UFA signings have been a non-factor and this trade further compounds it.

Doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence.

Right. Hiller has been meh. Locking up Brodie to a long-term cap friendly deal has been meh.

Now having 6 picks in the top 80 in the coming draft, while not losing anything of meaning to the team's playoff hopes? Meh.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

Actually, in his last 30 games he HAS been producing.

29 (13g 16a) points in 41 games.

Not bad for a carear AHL player.


What are your other points for why this is a bad trade?

[Quincy Egg]

Originally Posted by heep223

Right. Hiller has been meh. Locking up Brodie to a long-term cap friendly deal has been meh.

Now having 6 picks in the top 80 in the coming draft, while not losing anything of meaning to the team's playoff hopes? Meh.

Hiller is an average goalie and signing him sure doesn't warrant any praise. Brodie took a small discount to be here, but what team doesn't have player who sign those type of deals other than Edmonton?

And picks are exactly that. Picks. There is no guarantee those turn into NHL players.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by MacFlame

However, in instances where those players are not playing well, the opportunity didn't go to Sven, which is unfortunate and likely (Sven) seen as the writing on the wall.

Like I said, Hartley has done an amazing job with the prospects, but I don't think he did with Sven. It happens.

I guess that's the question then, does Hartley give a player like Sven more ice time to give him a chance and hope he breaks out, or do you wait for him to show you something and then move him up?

I'm a fan of the latter, because I think if you give a player prime ice time when he doesn't really deserve it then other players take notice and you can lose the respect of your players. A guy like Jooris clearly forced Hartley's hand, Sven didn't. I don't think that's a coaching issue, I think that a player's responsibility. So many young players getting chances with this team over the past year or two, Sven had all the opportunities in the world to force the team to keep him and give him decent ice time, he just never got to the point where he played well enough to keep him over other younger players. He was just 'meh' for me most of the time, it's too bad. With a young rebuilding team this was probably the perfect opportunity for Sven to stick in the NHL full time, he just couldn't get it done. Maybe he will in Vancouver.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

The only thing that grinds my gears about this trade is that it is yet another (over hyped?) first rounder that didn't pan out for the Flames. It is the wrong way to look at it, but it feels like we traded the 13th overall pick for a 2nd rounder. The resulting question is how much value should we really put into 1st round picks?

2011.....Sven Bartschi........66GP (Didn't want to play for CGY)

The bolded part isn't true (or at least wasn't always true). He wanted to play for Calgary, which was why he was so sour about being demoted so often.

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Are Shark fans still pissed about trading Kipper for a 2nd when the second turned into Vlassic?

If the flames get good value for the 2nd then it could be a win-win trade just like Kipper

I was thinking about this today and Rico Fata came to mind. He was essentially in the same situation Baertschi was in. He had some abilities that made him look awesome at times, but he lacked in too many other ways and couldn't put it all together (he was a training camp warrior from what I recall). Instead of trying to cut their losses and trading him before he was waiver eligible, they tried to sneak him through waivers in early 2001 and lost him for nothing.

Hypothetically speaking, if they could have traded him for a 2nd rounder in 2002, they would have had a shot at the following players:

Jarret Stoll
Josh Harding
Trevor Daley
Matt Greene
Duncan Keith
Matt Stajan
Jiri Hudler
Johnny Boychuk
Tomas Fleishmann

It's still a gamble of course that a 2nd rounder will become something, but in hindsight, the gamble of a 2nd rounder would have been better than the gamble of either hoping the player turned out or trying to sneak him through waivers.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Anyone that thinks Sven had a fair shake here either didn't watch the games he played or is fooling themselves. 4th line. Bollig, Jooris, Setoguchi, Byron top linemates. Avg ice of 9 minutes. Stapled to the bench in the third period, regardless of how he had played in the game. Never put into a situation to succeed.

This is the thing that bothers me. The Flames never let him sink or swim, they just refused to find out what he actually was or wasn't.

When the Canucks actually give him a chance to play I guess we will all see what kind of hockey player Sven Baertschi is.

I have the feeling this one is going to look bad for the Flames for a long time.

Here's the thing: Forget about his body of work in the NHL for the moment. He is a third-year pro playing in the minors, and while he has been good at times, even at that level, Baertschi has not consistently managed to establish himself as one of the top players in the AHL like he should have already. He gets piles of ice time and is played in all situations, and yet I have not been convinced at any point in the past two years that he is a better player than several other Flames prospects on the same roster. Has he established himself ahead of Granlund? Ferland? Poirier? Jooris? Last year he was dropped behind Max Reinhart and Ben Street on the depth chart.

It could be argued that the Flames have actually been pretty patient: waiting for him to outgrow the AHL like he was projected to. He hasn't.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

No way you sit Glencross for Sven
Jackman plays a completely different position/style
Raymond has been better than Sven
Setoguchi is gone

At some point the onus falls on the player himself. Maybe he has the talent, maybe he doesn't, but he didn't show me much over the past year or so. As a big fan of his coming out of junior I kept expecting him to bust out and force the Flames to give him a spot, but he never did that. I don't care if you're on the 2nd line or the 4th line, you have to bust you butt and force the team to keep you around. Sven never did that. And in the meantime other prospects are passing him by. Sucks, and maybe he will show us more with Vancouver than he did here, but you can't keep players around forever waiting for them to take the next step.

That's really what we are talking about here....when we mention Gaudreau, Monahan, Jooris we talk about forcing their way onto the team....Sven simply never did that.

It is that simple for me....doesn't matter if they told him to fill water bottles...fill them like a rabid dog who never wants to go back and fill the old stinky AHL water bottles, or something.

[Max Cow Disease]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

Hiller is an average goalie and signing him sure doesn't warrant any praise. Brodie took a small discount to be here, but what team doesn't have player who sign those type of deals other than Edmonton?



And picks are exactly that. Picks. There is no guarantee those turn into NHL players.

Yeah, so as a team in the midst of a rebuild, you throw as many handfuls of sh*t at the wall as you can, and hope some sticks. By doubling the number of picks we have in the first few rounds of a supposedly good draft, you've probably helped your team. Bottom line.

What would you have preferred Treliving trade for this deadline? Good roster players who can help the team now? You saw the prices being paid. Tree did exactly the right thing (especially given the Gio injury) by standing pat and accumulating assets.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Just looking at Sven's stats season by season. He really was consistently mediocre, 1st season in 2012, 26 points in 32 games in the AHL, in 2013 29 points in 41 games, and this season 25 points in 36 games. So he seems to really have levelled out and for whatever reason it was likely never going to work in Calgary. I don't like trades within the division but I guess it will be interesting fodder.

[Quincy Egg]

Originally Posted by Max Cow Disease

Yeah, so as a team in the midst of a rebuild, you throw as many handfuls of sh*t at the wall as you can, and hope some sticks. By doubling the number of picks we have in the first few rounds of a supposedly good draft, you've probably helped your team. Bottom line.

What would you have preferred Treliving trade for this deadline? Good roster players who can help the team now? You saw the prices being paid. Tree did exactly the right thing (especially given the Gio injury) by standing pat and accumulating assets.

Isn't it a little premature to be complimentary just because he acquired some picks? I'll praise him if those picks turn into actual players, until then it's wishful thinking to assume that at least 2 of those picks amounts to something.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

Not a great trade. Come to think of it, most of Brad Treliving's move have been a resounding "meh." His UFA signings have been a non-factor and this trade further compounds it...

Am I the only one who thinks that the Diaz signing counts as a pretty successful pickup?

I think a good way to judge a GM's body of work is to evaluate what he has done against what he should or could have done.

So far, I don't think that Treliving has missed too many opportunities. He has not done a lot with the roster, but it is pretty hard to argue that he could have made it much better without some huge sacrifices, and there is the key. In actual fact, Treliving has bolstered my confidence in his work because he has been doggedly consistent in his approach this season, and his commitment to work towards getting better down the road.

[Max Cow Disease]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

Isn't it a little premature to be complimentary just because he acquired some picks? I'll praise him if those picks turn into actual players, until then it's wishful thinking to assume that at least 2 of those picks amounts to something.

I'm not complimenting the as-of-yet faceless picks, I'm complimenting the strategy. What he did this deadline was by and large the right thing to do for the team, just as sending Bennett back down to Kingston was likely the right thing. Of course, picks may not pan out, but such is true for any team or GM in the league. Thing is, no picks, no new supply of potential good young players coming down the pipe.

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Am I the only one who thinks that the Diaz signing counts as a pretty successful pickup?

I think a good way to judge a GM's body of work is to evaluate what he has done against what he should or could have done.

So far, I don't think that Treliving has missed too many opportunities. He has not done a lot with the roster, but it is pretty hard to argue that he could have made it much better without some huge sacrifices, and there is the key. In actual fact, Treliving has bolstered my confidence in his work because he has been doggedly consistent in his approach this season, and his commitment to work towards getting better down the road.

Always hear about how the good GMs are the ones who don't make a trade to save their job or Treliving stressing not getting too high with the highs this season. He's really stuck to his word and looking at the big picture years down the road. Careful buyer is really a good way of describing him thus far. Since it hasn't even been a year since he took the job, I think we'll need to still be more patient with another draft, offseason and trade deadline to get a better idea of how he's going to go about improving the team.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

Hiller is an average goalie and signing him sure doesn't warrant any praise. Brodie took a small discount to be here, but what team doesn't have player who sign those type of deals other than Edmonton?

And picks are exactly that. Picks. There is no guarantee those turn into NHL players.

Discount or not...the Brodie deal is already a home run. If you can't give him credit for that then I'm pretty sure your mind is set.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

Isn't it a little premature to be complimentary just because he acquired some picks? I'll praise him if those picks turn into actual players, until then it's wishful thinking to assume that at least 2 of those picks amounts to something.

Today, Treliving has six picks in three rounds in stead of three. Does he not deserve some credit for greatly improving the Flames' chances of having those picks amount to something?

*EDIT* And to add to that, shouldn't Treliving deserve all-the-more credit for turning an average AHL player into a second round pick? How often does that happen?

[sss1]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

The situation they have with Kassian mirrors Calgary's Baertshi situation somewhat. If Willie Desjardins was having issues with Zacks consistency and effort levels then there is no reason to suggest he won't have the same issues with Sven.

As a Flames fan who has been burned by trades/situations like this in the past I just hope for our collective mental health that this doesn't end up being a huge mistake.

This actually reminds me the Cody Hodgson deal that happened a few years ago. There were reports that Hodgson was upset with the ice time and opportunities he was getting. At that time the Canucks had a full roster and were considered a legitimate cup contender, but eventually Hodgson got dealt to Buffalo for Kassian, and after the trade Mike Gillis was quite public about his frustrations when having to deal with Hodgson's camp. By all accounts, it looked like Hodgson requested a trade to be made.

It's been a couple of seasons since that trade and Hodgson hasn't really panned out to be the number one center that he was projected to be when he got drafted by Canucks. He is playing in the NHL, albeit on the bottom six. Who knows what will happen to Baertshi, though. Maybe the Canucks will have space for him to play his game. I don't really feel bad for him; I find it hard to pin the blame on the organization when he was surpassed by forwards that are playing much better than him.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Absolutely he deserves credit. He is being patient and sticking with his plan and building this team through the draft which, in my opinion, is the only way a team stands a chance at being successful.

[Quincy Egg]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Today, Treliving has six picks in three rounds in stead of three. Does he not deserve some credit for greatly improving the Flames' chances of having those picks amount to something?

*EDIT* And to add to that, shouldn't Treliving deserve all-the-more credit for turning an average AHL player into a second round pick? How often does that happen?

Yzerman turned one into two 2nd round picks.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Rhettzky

I don't mind this trade, a second round pick this year should have solid value. My question would be, at what point would this trade be considered a loss for us?

If Sven turns into a;
-Just a regular NHLer?
-0-20 point per season guy?
-20-40 point per season guy?
-40-60 point per season guy?
-A lower point player but figures out the D side of the game?
-or you'll judge it based on how we use the 2nd rounder.

I don't look at trades that way. The only thing that matters is what the 2nd round pick does for the Flames versus what Sven would have done for the Flames. What Sven does on Vancouver, or whatever he team he plays for after that, is irrelevant.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

Isn't it a little premature to be complimentary just because he acquired some picks? I'll praise him if those picks turn into actual players, until then it's wishful thinking to assume that at least 2 of those picks amounts to something.

Picks have value, whether you want to admit it or not.