[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by Muta

I'm starting to notice that Vancouver fans and media are suggesting the Canucks are going to 'get his development back on track'. Like, implying that what the Flames were doing wasn't good, and that their system will be much better. They're all confident it will happen.

Anyone else annoyed by this? Vancouver has a worse track record recently of developing prospects, so I'm not sure how their 'system' of developing players is going to be better than ours.

Canucks have to sell it just like we are. They need to believe he was poorly developed and the potential is still there. Where we believe he is soft and wouldn't develop properly and has basically leveled off. No surprise here.

I'm sure I'll field a lot of question on him tonight.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Anyone that thinks Sven had a fair shake here either didn't watch the games he played or is fooling themselves. 4th line. Bollig, Jooris, Setoguchi, Byron top linemates. Avg ice of 9 minutes. Stapled to the bench in the third period, regardless of how he had played in the game. Never put into a situation to succeed.

This is the thing that bothers me. The Flames never let him sink or swim, they just refused to find out what he actually was or wasn't.

When the Canucks actually give him a chance to play I guess we will all see what kind of hockey player Sven Baertschi is.

I have the feeling this one is going to look bad for the Flames for a long time.

That's because Baertschi doesn't do anything to warrant more ice-time. Playing with guys like Byron, Jooris and Bollig was the best chance for him to hopefully learn how to play on both ends of the rink. It was about developing him and unfortunately, instead of buying into it, he sulked. To play more than 12 minutes per game, you need to be able to do more.

If a player is going to get top 6 ice-time, they need to be able to play on both ends of the ice. Even Gaudreau, while lacking the physical tool set to be a defensive player, makes up for it with his hockey IQ. Baertschi lacks the heart, physical presence and hockey sense (in 2 of 3 zones) to play a well rounded game. Players like that just don't deserve a tonne of ice-time. He has all the flaws of Taylor Hall with about half the skill.

It's not too late to turn it around, but the clock is ticking for him.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Exactly. There is a good chance he may still be put on waivers if he can't break into the top 6 for Van.

It's really top 6 or bust and what happens if/when Desjardins sits him in the press box for the first time? Does he start second guessing himself, getting down, disgruntled? He could take off for them and have a great start to the season and that's probably what he really needs is initial success to keep his confidence high as he doesn't seem to deal with adversity well.

[MacFlame]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

No way you sit Glencross for Sven
Jackman plays a completely different position/style
Raymond has been better than Sven
Setoguchi is gone

At some point the onus falls on the player himself. Maybe he has the talent, maybe he doesn't, but he didn't show me much over the past year or so. As a big fan of his coming out of junior I kept expecting him to bust out and force the Flames to give him a spot, but he never did that. I don't care if you're on the 2nd line or the 4th line, you have to bust you butt and force the team to keep you around. Sven never did that. And in the meantime other prospects are passing him by. Sucks, and maybe he will show us more with Vancouver than he did here, but you can't keep players around forever waiting for them to take the next step.

I'm referencing actual events, not generally speaking. There was a time that Jackman played on the second line, while Sven was benched. I remember this board blowing up over the situation, actually.

Raymond has not ALWAYS been better than Sven..likewise with Glencross. Generally, I agree that both of them are. However, in instances where those players are not playing well, the opportunity didn't go to Sven, which is unfortunate and likely (Sven) seen as the writing on the wall.

Like I said, Hartley has done an amazing job with the prospects, but I don't think he did with Sven. It happens.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Originally Posted by Galakanokis

Canucks have to sell it just like we are. They need to believe he was poorly developed and the potential is still there. Where we believe he is soft and wouldn't develop properly and has basically leveled off. No surprise here.

I'm sure I'll field a lot of question on him tonight.

Pretty much. Flames believe they've seen all they need to see. Canucks believe there's more. If either side thought differently, the trade doesn't happen. That's all there is to it.

[Igottago]

My concern is that despite not having the greatest couple of years in Calgary, the time in the minors and trying to hone his overall game here will actually be a huge benefit to his growth. Almost like we did the development work and now Vancouver could reap the benefits.

As others had suggested, it might not happen in Vancouver either. But if it does, this is going to sting.

[t0rrent98]

It's too bad Baertschi wasn't able to work things out here. Best wishes to you and hope you crack the Nucks line up next year.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Muta

I'm starting to notice that Vancouver fans and media are suggesting the Canucks are going to 'get his development back on track'. Like, implying that what the Flames were doing wasn't good, and that their system will be much better. They're all confident it will happen.

Anyone else annoyed by this? Vancouver has a worse track record recently of developing prospects, so I'm not sure how their 'system' of developing players is going to be better than ours.

Nah, not annoyed at all. That's part and parcel with moves like this. Even if the Flames are as good at developing as we hope, some guys will still fall through the cracks or be mismanaged. A player who was drafted by another management group like Baertschi is a prime candidate for this.

Maybe the Flames did throw his development off track, I have no idea, I know his pouting didn't help and maybe the Canucks can get him back on. We'll see how it shakes out, I'm not rooting against him.

[CroFlames]

Relax fellas. When he can't crack the top 6 in Van (because apparently he can only play top 6 or nothing at all) we'll pick him up off waivers, and thank Vancouver for developing him properly

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's really top 6 or bust and what happens if/when Desjardins sits him in the press box for the first time? Does he start second guessing himself, getting down, disgruntled? He could take off for them and have a great start to the season and that's probably what he really needs is initial success to keep his confidence high as he doesn't seem to deal with adversity well.

The situation they have with Kassian mirrors Calgary's Baertshi situation somewhat. If Willie Desjardins was having issues with Zacks consistency and effort levels then there is no reason to suggest he won't have the same issues with Sven.

As a Flames fan who has been burned by trades/situations like this in the past I just hope for our collective mental health that this doesn't end up being a huge mistake.

[868904]

Originally Posted by MacFlame

I'm referencing actual events, not generally speaking. There was a time that Jackman played on the second line, while Sven was benched. I remember this board blowing up over the situation, actually.

Raymond has not ALWAYS been better than Sven..likewise with Glencross. Generally, I agree that both of them are. However, in instances where those players are not playing well, the opportunity didn't go to Sven, which is unfortunate and likely (Sven) seen as the writing on the wall.

Like I said, Hartley has done an amazing job with the prospects, but I don't think he did with Sven. It happens.

Well its either a problem with Sven or Bob. Treliving was dealt this hand by Bob.

Bob doesnt seem to have this problem with all the other flames prospects. He also didnt have this problem in Colorado when he had soft small skill prospects like Tanguay and Hejduk. Not did he have this problem with Marc Savard in Atlanta and this was all when he was an even harder was to deal with apparently.

May be the only person to blame here is Sven.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I actually think that Sven has a much better chance of making the NHL on another team than he would if he stayed in Calgary. Not because Calgary did anything wrong, or there is more opportunity in Van, but simply because clearly Sven got himself in a headspace where he simply wasn't going to be able overcome this without a change.

Long term, how successful he will be will depend on whether he will deal with the future adversities he faces better than he did this one, because if not he'll fail, but if he can grow and mature, it could work out.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by 868904

Well its either a problem with Sven or Bob. Treliving was dealt this hand by Bob.

Bob doesnt seem to have this problem with all the other flames prospects. He also didnt have this problem in Colorado when he had soft small skill prospects like Tanguay and Hejduk. Not did he have this problem with Marc Savard in Atlanta and this was all when he was an even harder was to deal with apparently.

May be the only person to blame here is Sven.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing.

Bob has shown a strict adherence to the Earned Never Given approach this season.

[Flamenspiel]

I am on the fence on this, just remembering the chemistry he had with Monahan early last year. I think it could go either way and almost exactly mirrors the scenario that played out with his Swiss countryman Nino Niederreiter as it pertains to the Islanders and now Minnesota. I think it was a tough decision for BT but that's why they get payed the big bucks. Nino is a big guy and was always ranked higher but that example shows how a player can react quite positively to new surroundings and a second chance.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by 868904

May be the only person to blame here is Sven.

Exactly, this is the NHL. Coaches don't have time to coddle players and change their diapers. There have been plenty of skilled players that have fallen through the cracks because they couldn't handle the mental part of the game. There is nothing that can be done about it. Move on and focus on the players who can help you win, not the players that need their hand held all the time.

[Quincy Egg]

Not a great trade. Come to think of it, most of Brad Treliving's move have been a resounding "meh." His UFA signings have been a non-factor and this trade further compounds it.

Doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I am on the fence on this, just remembering the chemistry he had with Monahan early last year. I think it could go either way and almost exactly mirrors the scenario that played out with his Swiss countryman Nino Niederreiter as it pertains to the Islanders and now Minnesota. I think it was a tough decision for BT but that's why they get payed the big bucks. Nino is a big guy and was always ranked higher but that example shows how a player can react quite positively to new surroundings and a second chance.

Easy the initial events/timeline mirror Nino, but until Sven makes an NHL team, stays with that NHL team and starts producing points I won't accept your premiss.

I am sure that for every Nino there is the opposite, a player that continues to fail to make an NHL team and dissappears into the minor league(s).

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

Not a great trade. Come to think of it, most of Brad Treliving's move have been a resounding "meh." His UFA signings have been a non-factor and this trade further compounds it.

Doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence.

Can you set out your points for why this isn't a "great trade".


I actually think it is a good trade.

2nd round pick for an AHL player that isn't prodcuing in the AHL.

[cDnStealth]

I take back my awful trade comment now that I know Sven requested it. Still would have preferred to see him go elsewhere but it's better to get a pick than simply see him walk. I am pretty sure everyone here wanted to see him succeed in Calgary but he just didn't prove that he deserved to be on the Flames especially over the other guys in our top 6.

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Yeah I was thinking the same thing.

Bob has shown a strict adherence to the Earned Never Given approach this season.

I think this is a big part of it. I recall Sven coming into rookie camp (last year?) almost with a sense of entitlement. He looked bad in that camp and the pre-season and they still gave him a look.

[Quincy Egg]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Can you set out your points for why this isn't a "great trade".


I actually think it is a good trade.

2nd round pick for an AHL player that isn't prodcuing in the AHL.

Actually, in his last 30 games he HAS been producing.