[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[Cheerio]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

The Flames should offer to re-letter any Sven jerseys

No they shouldn't. It's a huge risk to take when you buy the jersey of someone who isn't even on the team full time yet.

[Hugh Jahrmes]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

The Flames should offer to re-letter any Sven jerseys

Think they'll re-crest my Baertschi Heat jersey to Stockton, maybe whichever of Ortio (likely not in the A next year), Poirer or Ferland aren't with the big club?

A guy can dream. Time to sell it to one of my friends from Abbotsford.

Might pee on it first

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Thanks, I needed a good laugh. Brad and Brian must have you on speed dial then huh? It's been pointed out time after time but the metrics you use for your index are way to subject and vary wildly from arena to arena. How do you explain that giveaways and takeaways are rarely equal on a game by game basis? Shouldn't every giveaway result in a takeaway? LET. IT. GO.

Ricardo's "grit index" is garbage. Total, unadulterated garbage.

However, it needs to be pointed out that the "giveaway" and "takeaway" statistics in the NHL are not two sides to the same on-ice event. They are different events altogether, that occasionally happen to overlap. A "giveaway" can occur if a player throws a blind pass up the middle that lands on the stick of an opposing player, but this is not a "takeaway." A "takeaway" can often occur when a player forechecks hard, lifts the stick, and strips the puck, but this again does not necessarily constitute a "giveaway" for the other player. Sometimes a "giveaway" and a "takeaway" are recorded for the same event, but this is not necessarily so all the time, and for good reason it is not a reflection of the subjectivity of these particular statistics.

[megatron]

After having the day to mull over the trade and read all 42 pages of this thread, my attitude has changed.

I was a big Sven supporter. I thought he would eventually figure it out and end up on our 2nd line beside Monahan (Bennett/Gaudreau/Poirier on 1st). I got too emotionally invested and bought was Feaster was selling back in 2011. Therefore, I was quite pissed off when I heard the news, especially going to Vancouver (only Edmonton is hated more) and then when I read it was a 2017 pick.

However, after reading about the waiver eligibility next year, him asking for a trade, and being passed over by many of the current prospects, Treliving basically had no choice and did very well by getting a 2nd in 2015.

Overall, I'm just a bit disappointed he couldn't put it all together here and be part of the solution. I am enjoying the fact we have 5 picks in the top 90 (?) of the 2015 draft.

[megatron]

nm: double post

[Fransken]

Originally Posted by buyakasha

Do you guys think this outcome and trade would have been the same if he hadn't been brought up for that little point streak a couple years ago?

Interesting point. I think the lack of elite offensive prospects led to, me at least, investing a whole lot of hope in him, in particular because of his five game tenure in the 11-12 season. And because he, at that time, was the only bright light in an otherwise pretty dull prospect base it stings a bit extra when he is let go.

But a second I think is a fair return with regard to the circumstances, and while I wish him the best of luck it would be awful watching him tearing us apart in a Vancouver jersey.

[Fransken]

And I got to change my signature...

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

However, it needs to be pointed out that the "giveaway" and "takeaway" statistics in the NHL are not two sides to the same on-ice event. They are different events altogether, that occasionally happen to overlap. A "giveaway" can occur if a player throws a blind pass up the middle that lands on the stick of an opposing player, but this is not a "takeaway." A "takeaway" can often occur when a player forechecks hard, lifts the stick, and strips the puck, but this again does not necessarily constitute a "giveaway" for the other player. Sometimes a "giveaway" and a "takeaway" are recorded for the same event, but this is not necessarily so all the time, and for good reason it is not a reflection of the subjectivity of these particular statistics.

Here is a good piece on the subjectivity of those stats, from 2009:

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2009/...-and-takeaways

If hit totals in the official NHL statistics are a little dubious, then giveaways and takeaways are on a whole other level. While the average rink records 14% more hits by the home team than by the visitors, home team takeaways (and visiting team giveaways) are 30-40% higher. In fewer than 3% of cases did official scorers report more takeaways by visiting teams or giveaways by their own team. And the rinks with the highest totals often record eight times as many as those with the lowest totals. The Phoenix Coyotes, as bad as they were last year, somehow gave the puck away just 83 times at home; the Sharks, with shutdown defense, recorded 375 in San Jose.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Here is a good piece on the subjectivity of those stats, from 2009:

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2009/...-and-takeaways

Oh, I am well aware of the attendant problems with these and other statistics that are badly affected by subjectivity from one rink to the next. I merely wanted to point out that every "giveaway" does not correspond to a reciprocal "takeaway" for the other team. Again, there are lots of instances when a player can commit a "giveaway" that does not produce a "takeaway," and vice versa. That's all.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Oh, I am well aware of the attendant problems with these and other statistics that are badly affected by subjectivity from one rink to the next. I merely wanted to point out that every "giveaway" does not correspond to a reciprocal "takeaway" for the other team. Again, there are lots of instances when a player can commit a "giveaway" that does not produce a "takeaway," and vice versa. That's all.

I'm not disagreeing with you in any way. Just addressing the point that you chose to pass over.

The only thing that takeaways and giveaways in the NHL really measure is how much each individual scorekeeper feels like handing out takeaways and giveaways. Which makes the RGI even sillier.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by megatron

Overall, I'm just a bit disappointed he couldn't put it all together here and be part of the solution. I am enjoying the fact we have 5 picks in the top 90 (?) of the 2015 draft.

I'll make you even happier, we have 6. Can't wait for June to see what happens.

We should be able to get players of Hickey/Smith's calibre with the 3rds, and better talents than that with our 2nds. Should be fun.

[Delthefunky]

I'm not too upset about this, but definitely hoping he doesn't put it all together in Van. What I don't get is that for the first year all I remember hearing was how great his attitude was, always worked hard and stayed after practices, just didn't seem like the pouty type. I suppose the truth lies somewhere in the middle. He was given a lot of hope and had it taken away so I can understand his frustration. More then anything I think the 5 game spell really did a lot of harm. Wish him the best, but maybe 5 years down the road with the Red Wings or something.

[Lanny_McDonald]

People need to be reminded that there was very little market for Baertscki. He had showed very little promise since he became a freshman and is on a downward trend in his performance. Treliving himself said that he got no offers remotely close to the second round pick that the Canucks sent to Calgary.those expecting a meteoric rise in the ability and success of Sven are in for a big disappointment. At least that's what most other hockey people feel when they see Sven Baertschi.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Delthefunky

I'm not too upset about this, but definitely hoping he doesn't put it all together in Van. What I don't get is that for the first year all I remember hearing was how great his attitude was, always worked hard and stayed after practices, just didn't seem like the pouty type. I suppose the truth lies somewhere in the middle. He was given a lot of hope and had it taken away so I can understand his frustration. More then anything I think the 5 game spell really did a lot of harm. Wish him the best, but maybe 5 years down the road with the Red Wings or something.

Nah. It was the 150 since then that did the harm.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Dammit Sven, we told you to trim those sideburns.

You're out of here.

[gvitaly]

The only thing that grinds my gears about this trade is that it is yet another (over hyped?) first rounder that didn't pan out for the Flames. It is the wrong way to look at it, but it feels like we traded the 13th overall pick for a 2nd rounder. The resulting question is how much value should we really put into 1st round picks?

Year.....Player Name..........Games with the Flames
2004.....Kris Chucko...........2GP
2005.....Matt Pelech..........13GP
2006.....Leland Irving.........13GP
------------------------------------
2007.....Mikael Backlund.....278GP
2008.....Greg Nemisz..........15GP(Traded so not to extend him)
2009.....Tim Erixon.............0GP(Didn't want to play for CGY)
2010.....N/A
2011.....Sven Bartschi........66GP(Didn't want to play for CGY)
2012.....Mark Jankowski......0GP(Huge question marks)
-----------------------------------
Here is where we finally struck gold
2013....Sean Monahan.......137GP
*Poirier, Klimchuk, and Bennett are looking good so far, I am just afraid to over hype our first round picks one more time.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

The only thing that grinds my gears about this trade is that it is yet another (over hyped?) first rounder that didn't pan out for the Flames. It is the wrong way to look at it, but it feels like we traded the 13th overall pick for a 2nd rounder. The resulting question is how much value should we really put into 1st round picks?

Year.....Player Name..........Games with the Flames
2004.....Kris Chucko...........2GP
2005.....Matt Pelech..........13GP
2006.....Leland Irving.........13GP
------------------------------------
2007.....Mikael Backlund.....278GP
2008.....Greg Nemisz..........15GP(Traded so not to extend him)
2009.....Tim Erixon.............0GP(Didn't want to play for CGY)
2010.....N/A
2011.....Sven Bartschi........66GP(Didn't want to play for CGY)
2012.....Mark Jankowski......0GP(Huge question marks)
-----------------------------------
Here is where we finally struck gold
2013....Sean Monahan.......137GP
*Poirier, Klimchuk, and Bennett are looking good so far, I am just afraid to over hype our first round picks one more time.

We traded the 13th overall pick for a chance at a top 6 forward and a 2nd round pick.

It's the risk you take when you use a 1st round pick to draft a player. Sometimes their value drops and sometimes it increases. I mean Sean Monahan is for sure worth more than a 6th overall pick.

[Hockeyguy15]

Looking back at that 2011 draft, the top 10 seem to be doing ok but after that it's slim pickings.

[Burke Salad]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

The Flames should offer to re-letter any Sven jerseys

For a happy medium, the Flames should at least be willing to change all Baertschi jersey's to scorch.

[ForeverFlameFan]

I find it funny that there is a lot more sad people about Sven moving than Glencross. I was the opposite, I was sad to see Glencross leave and didn't mind Sven going.