Man stabbed, then decapitated on grey hound bus

[polak]

I don't disagree with the experts in terms of his state. I guess you can say I disagree with the experts risk analysis mainly due to the severity of his last episode.

As for the optics, I'm over them now. That's what my inital opinion was formed on and that's why it changed.

Honestly, it's not going to change. I wish everyone involved the best. 7 years of observation for such a severe episode will never seem like enough to me to guarantee the safety of the public. When life is involved I don't see the harm in being as careful as possible.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by polak

I don't disagree with the experts in terms of his state. I guess you can say I disagree with the experts risk analysis mainly due to the severity of his last episode.

As for the optics, I'm over them now. That's what my inital opinion was formed on and that's why it changed.

Honestly, it's not going to change. I wish everyone involved the best. 7 years of observation for such a severe episode will never seem like enough to me to guarantee the safety of the public. When life is involved I don't see the harm in being as careful as possible.

So you don't agree with experts. The second half of your sentence contradicts agreeing with and trusting the experts.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by polak

Jesus you guys love to jump all over someone who doesn't share the exact same PC views as you. Every single thread. It's ridiculous.

Sorry for not being as stoked as you guys are to introduce someone who decapitated someone onto the streets after only 7 years. I guess that makes me a hate-mongering lunatic who wants blood and should move to another country.

Only on this website does "I don't think he should be released so soon" turn into "you should move to countries where they cut peoples head off in the town square".

And as for my opinion changing, yeah thats what happens in a normal discussion. New ideas are introduced and opinions change. That and the initial shock of the news wears off.

I'm not trying to pick on you - I think your reservations about someone being released are valid, we just disagree on whether Li should be released or not.

For the record, I'm not 'all eager' to see him released, I'm simply putting my faith in the experts who are caring for him and the professionals who work in our justice system. I think that's a bit of an unfair characterization of the people who are posting similar views to mine in this thread.

Truthfully - and I suppose I'm playing armchair psychologist here - but I think you're forming your opinions on this matter in the moment. Your heart is on your sleeve here which makes sense as it's an emotional issue. I don't think there's anything wrong with that per se, but you seem to be frustrated by people pointing out perceived flaws or inconsistencies in your argument as it has changed quite substantially over the thread. This may come off as condescending and I don't mean it to at all, but I think that's an admirable trait - openness to changing your mind - though at some point it does come off as backtracking, especially when someone comes out as forcefully as you did earlier in the thread.

Anyway, interesting conversation and enlightening as well.

[Nage Waza]

Jumping in here because Polak is being dive bombed like crazy.

Some of us tax payers are not impressed with our court system. It doesn't matter to us what experts or the court system say, we are tax payers and can criticize, since we are paying for it.

Some people are fine with how the story played out, other like Polak have some opinions, and others like me are far more extreme about it. Considering Polak (I assume) is paying for the court system, he is fine to express his opinion.

I think that if this guy has mental illness, so to do pedophiles, rapists, etc. None of those guys deserve to be free, in my opinion, ever. Yet the court system let's these guys go, nearly every time.

Do we have the right to speak out about that? Of course. Some of the posts towards Polak have been pathetic.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Jumping in here because Polak is being dive bombed like crazy.

Some of us tax payers are not impressed with our court system. It doesn't matter to us what experts or the court system say, we are tax payers and can criticize, since we are paying for it.

Some people are fine with how the story played out, other like Polak have some opinions, and others like me are far more extreme about it. Considering Polak (I assume) is paying for the court system, he is fine to express his opinion.

I think that if this guy has mental illness, so to do pedophiles, rapists, etc. None of those guys deserve to be free, in my opinion, ever. Yet the court system let's these guys go, nearly every time.

Do we have the right to speak out about that? Of course. Some of the posts towards Polak have been pathetic.

I don't think your analogy applies in this case.

People with Li's condition can be medicated and treated to the point where they are no longer a threat. That may be true for some pedophiles, rapists, etc, but only those that suffer from a legitimate medical condition. Many of them don't, they're just very bad people.

Although, in the case of Li, I have some reservations too. There are unfortunately many people that suffer from the same affliction and very few of them hurt other people, especially to the gruesome level that happened in this case. I'm certainly not an expert on mental illness, but I have a hard time understanding how someone could do this, even during an extreme episode, if they don't already "have it in them" to do so (although I suppose we all have it in us at a very base, evolutionary level).

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I don't think your analogy applies in this case.

You mean regarding pedophiles etc? Yah, well, the same court system let's those guys walk free as well. So yes, it absolutely applies.

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

People with Li's condition can be medicated and treated to the point where they are no longer a threat. That may be true for some pedophiles, rapists, etc, but only those that suffer from a legitimate medical condition. Many of them don't, they're just very bad people.

I am unconcerned if he is now perfect. What he did in my opinion should result in a life behind bars. If we had the death penalty, should it apply in this case? I don't know.

We used to call that strange kid in class a weirdo, now we have actual names for it. They are finding medical causes for pretty much everything now, seemingly normal people get prescribed medication for an assortment of mental health concerns. I have the utmost compassion for these people, and don't really dispute their medical issues. But I don't really care, to be honest. You commit the crime you do the time. These same people are serving time for less violent crimes. Proper medication might have prevented crimes daily.

http://www.cmha.ca/media/fast-facts-.../#.VPNI7lPF-yg

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Although, in the case of Li, I have some reservations too. There are unfortunately many people that suffer from the same affliction and very few of them hurt other people, especially to the gruesome level that happened in this case. I'm certainly not an expert on mental illness, but I have a hard time understanding how someone could do this, even during an extreme episode, if they don't already "have it in them" to do so (although I suppose we all have it in us at a very base, evolutionary level).

Agreed. Each case is different, and even if they 'cut out' from him whatever caused that episode, I don't care that much, I just care that we lock them up.

We send soldiers off to die in foreign places - I think we can be a little tougher here with criminals. Just my thoughts.

[Righteous1]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.VPEb9_nF-So

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Jumping in here because Polak is being dive bombed like crazy.

Some of us tax payers are not impressed with our court system. It doesn't matter to us what experts or the court system say, we are tax payers and can criticize, since we are paying for it.

So why bother having experts then if we're not going to listen to them?

I think that if this guy has mental illness, so to do pedophiles, rapists, etc. None of those guys deserve to be free, in my opinion, ever. Yet the court system let's these guys go, nearly every time.

And this entire paragraph is worse than anything polak has posted. A bunch of unsubstantiated speculation and rhetoric that you've thrown out as if they were facts.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You mean regarding pedophiles etc? Yah, well, the same court system let's those guys walk free as well. So yes, it absolutely applies.

We send soldiers off to die in foreign places - I think we can be a little tougher here with criminals. Just my thoughts.

Starting the post with pedophiles and end it with soldiers dying in other countries...

You're advocating for a justice system meant to punish people for their actions. That's fine, it's a reasonable position. It does get clouded when mental disorders enter the equation and how we determine if they are criminally responsible for their actions, but at least I understand it. Flames_Gimp as well seems to have a similar stance, as do so many many more people.

But then don't hide behind "public safety" if that's your stance like Polak did. I have no problem with the 'punishment' viewpoint but if someone is arguing Li needs to be kept incarcerated for public safety while trained and educated professionals are, apparently, saying otherwise then they need to have some credential or reason for it. Whether it's mental health, vaccines, global warming or any other thing, if you're going up against expert analysts you need to provide facts for me to take your argument serious.

[Daradon]

Yeah, Polak is getting it kinda hard here. His viewpoints have changed a bit since his first point which is a good thing in my opinion. They'll never be 100% consensus, that's unreasonable. I think after a while, it'd be more beneficial and constructive to applaud him for being open and allowing his mind to change some, than continuing to jump on him for his newer and newer posts.

So anyway, I'll say thanks. It was a good discussion.

[rubecube]

I have a question for those who think he should never see the light of day again. If the situation were that before he got on the bus someone slipped him a huge does of a powerful hallucinogenic (say like and LSD and PCP combo), without his knowledge or consent, and he had the same reaction, would you still feel the same way?

[cracher]

^ Personally, I favor treatment/rehabilitation in this case. There are, however, plenty of people who go with the polak/gimp school of thought. Check out the case of Big Lurch from the early 2000s. I was living in the US at the time and remember most people around me calling for a life sentence. Perhaps the difference is that he willingly did all kinds of crazy drugs as opposed to having a condition that he has no choice about.

As an aside, have a question for streetpharmacist (dunno if he's even in this thread?): compliance with the med schedule seems to be a problem (have a relative-in-law with a significant dsm diagnosis who, too, struggles with taking everything on time). Do they not have a depot or a long sustained-release formulation for atypical antipsychotics? It would just make so much sense...

[flamesfan1297]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Jumping in here because Polak is being dive bombed like crazy.

Some of us tax payers are not impressed with our court system. It doesn't matter to us what experts or the court system say, we are tax payers and can criticize, since we are paying for it.

Some people are fine with how the story played out, other like Polak have some opinions, and others like me are far more extreme about it. Considering Polak (I assume) is paying for the court system, he is fine to express his opinion.

I think that if this guy has mental illness, so to do pedophiles, rapists, etc. None of those guys deserve to be free, in my opinion, ever. Yet the court system let's these guys go, nearly every time.

Do we have the right to speak out about that? Of course. Some of the posts towards Polak have been pathetic.

Couldn't of said it better myself!! Completely agree with you. This guy should never be free and neither should pedophiles, rapists, etc.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I have a question for those who think he should never see the light of day again. If the situation were that before he got on the bus someone slipped him a huge does of a powerful hallucinogenic (say like and LSD and PCP combo), without his knowledge or consent, and he had the same reaction, would you still feel the same way?

That's changing the parameters of what happened. It's irrelevant.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Dagger

That's changing the parameters of what happened. It's irrelevant.

How so? In both situations he's having a psychotic episode through no fault of his own and there end up being major ramifications. I'm just curious if people would believe he's criminally responsible in one situation but not the other.

EDIT: If you want to, let's take Li out of the equation. If this hypothetical scenario happened do you think the perpetrator should be held criminally responsible?

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by rubecube

How so? In both situations he's having a psychotic episode through no fault of his own and there end up being major ramifications. I'm just curious if people would believe he's criminally responsible in one situation but not the other.

EDIT: If you want to, let's take Li out of the equation. If this hypothetical scenario happened do you think the perpetrator should be held criminally responsible?

We should also allow the too drunk to know what I was doing defense again. That was excellent.
But we should lock up all the A- hole misogynists.
Sound about right, rube?

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by rubecube

So why bother having experts then if we're not going to listen to them?

Exactly! I want a court system that determines if they committed the crime and I don't care about the mental illness side of things, just like how it treats most other mental illness.

Originally Posted by rubecube

And this entire paragraph is worse than anything polak has posted. A bunch of unsubstantiated speculation and rhetoric that you've thrown out as if they were facts.

There we go, on the attack again. You truly hate opposing views.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Starting the post with pedophiles and end it with soldiers dying in other countries...

You're advocating for a justice system meant to punish people for their actions. That's fine, it's a reasonable position. It does get clouded when mental disorders enter the equation and how we determine if they are criminally responsible for their actions, but at least I understand it. Flames_Gimp as well seems to have a similar stance, as do so many many more people.

But then don't hide behind "public safety" if that's your stance like Polak did. I have no problem with the 'punishment' viewpoint but if someone is arguing Li needs to be kept incarcerated for public safety while trained and educated professionals are, apparently, saying otherwise then they need to have some credential or reason for it. Whether it's mental health, vaccines, global warming or any other thing, if you're going up against expert analysts you need to provide facts for me to take your argument serious.

Since when am I hiding behind anything? I don't just think public safety, but also simple punishment.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I have a question for those who think he should never see the light of day again. If the situation were that before he got on the bus someone slipped him a huge does of a powerful hallucinogenic (say like and LSD and PCP combo), without his knowledge or consent, and he had the same reaction, would you still feel the same way?

Different situation completely, and I think I would need to know more before I commented.

On the other hand, the big difference is in the real scenario his brain is what fed the chemicals, the second scenario is someone provided the chemicals. If the brain is the 'defective' part, just like they are determining with so many criminals, than why are we letting this guy go but not so many other criminals?

If they didn't have a 'cure' for his disorder, would you want him released?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Since when am I hiding behind anything? I don't just think public safety, but also simple punishment.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say you were. I was referring to Polak's argument.

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

We should also allow the too drunk to know what I was doing defense again. That was excellent.

I think there's a tremendous difference between the choice to have alcohol/drugs and a psychotic episode (or in the case of rubecube's scenario where the choice wasn't made).

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

On the other hand, the big difference is in the real scenario his brain is what fed the chemicals, the second scenario is someone provided the chemicals. If the brain is the 'defective' part, just like they are determining with so many criminals, than why are we letting this guy go but not so many other criminals?

No one is advocating for someone with ADHD to have a get out of jail free card, in the quite literal sense.

People can have mental disorders of all sorts and still have the capacity to make decisions. That's a difference, I believe, that can't be overlooked.

A psychotic episode where you lose any resemblance of control to make decisions isn't the same as having a mental disorder and committing a crime. I think there is room to have a justice system that punishes along with rehabilitates. I don't know if there's a system that can punish someone for actions they have no control over and still call it a justice system.