Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[jolinar of malkshor]

Well Palistine did exist for a brief time after the UN divided the area both for Israel and Arab Palistine. The problem was that as soon as Israel declared independence the other neighbouring countries, and we know who they are, attack Israel to try and wipe them out. As we all know they lost and under the Armistice Agreement the other Arab countries decided to divide what was left of Palistine up amungst themselves.

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by spiteface

Israel, being the stronger nation, are entirely responsible for not envoking a more peaceful rationale to the crisis in the middle east. Hence they must be labelled as terrorists. Not only you ane CNN get to choose who the terrorists are...

What are you thinking. It certainly sounds like you suggest that Isreal should allow Hezbollah, a recognized terrorist organization, to use suicide bombers to blow up Israilis, then kidnap there soldiers, and even bomb Isreal and not do anything about it. How is that even rational? Isreal certainly did not ask Hezbollah to do all of these things so I don't get how this is ALL Isreals fault and thus terrorists.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Didn't deny a thing. Just had to add to your usual anti-american post. North Vietnamese killed there million in a much shorter period....commited genocide too!!!!!

It was a fact, not a subjective comment. If you care to counter that fact with another, you're welcome too. I guess being a dick as well is just icing on the cake.

How is St. Noam by the way?

I wouldn't know. Why don't you search through the board history and find the last time I've mentioned him? I dare you to back up your sniveling comment.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Wading through the dreck, I found this post that deserved a response.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I was thinking tonight that the burden of responsibility lies heavily on the head of the Hezbollah, first for whats happening in Lebanon, and second for securing the cease fire in the region.

Can't agree with you. I think the force with greatest power has to lay the olive branch on the table. When the neighborhood bully is kicking the crap out of the skinny little nerd at recess, and all the other kids are looking on, the skinny little kid doesn't win points by calling for a truce.

I mean the conflicts already happening, and Hezbollah started it by poking a bear with a rocket propelled stick. If they're serious about protecting thier people, all they have to do is return the soldiers and destroy thier stockpiles of rockets, and Israel might be willing to accept a return to status quo ante.

Oh boy! The status quo! More oppression for the people who lived for generations on the lands Israel now occupies! Wow, what a victory!

No matter what anyone says to me, I just can't view the Hezbollah as the protectors of thier people.

Neither can I. I can't believe that anyone would turn to these clowns to protect themselves and represent them. But you know what, I can't believe that the American people would elect George W. Bush as president of the United States (TWICE!!!) to protect them and represent them. People on both sides appear to do stupid things. Fact of the matter is that the people do view Hezbollah as their protector and we have to accept that. We don't have to like it, but we do have to accept that. And why do we have to accept it? Because when we don't, we force our beliefs on them, and we force them to live to our standard, not their own. That is a form of oppression, and its something that countries like ours are not supposed to support. Ironically, its something our governments do all the time and support other governments that do it to their own people.

Its something along the lines of living up to thier charter and using thier own people as useful idiots (As Stalin used to say) Secretly Hezbollah wants as many civillian casualties as it can get on both sides of the border. From the Lebanese side it makes it easier for them to receiver donations from radical governments in the region. Fresh troops that they can send to thier blessed martyred deaths (the younger the better, its good press), and with more money comes more advanced weapons (we've already seen it in this conflict as they've received longer ranged weapons). They want more casualties in Israel, because they know that Israel has to react, causing more deaths in Lebanon, and thus, well see above.

And secretly Israel wants the same thing. Those casualties inside their own borders give them the excuse to broaden the conflict and slowly chew away more and more of the countries surrounding them. If Israel were so concerned about these missiles being launched into their homeland they would deploy their Patriot batteries to the north and eliminate them. I'm sure America would be extremely thankful for the real world data those intercepts could provide and would give them MORE free weapons to "protect" themselves.

If your going to complain about Civilian casualties in Lebanon, you have to complain about Civilian attacks in Israel. If your going to assign blame you have to assign it between the two parties. Israel for the collateral damage that has happened. Hezbollah for using thier own people and the Civillians that they are the so called liberators for as pawns.

Hmmm, I haven't heard a single person say Hezbollah was innocent here. I haven't heard a single person say that their actions have not been vile and that they are not helping the situation. Hezbollah is indeed responsible for many of the things you suggest, but when you are taking on a greater power, you fight in the most effective manner. As military man you know this. Or are you suggesting that if America invaded Canada you would just lay your weapons down and let the Yanks take turns on your wife and kids. Or would you fight with any means possible?

Which group is more evil and needs to be wiped from the earth is fairly apparent in my opinion.

Hilarious! It's okay to say that Arabs should be wiped from the earth, but its terrible to say the Jews should be wiped from the earth? Holy double standard Batman! Frankly, the earth would be much better off if the whole ****ing species were eliminated! Here's to the elimination of man from the face of the earth!

Sadly like a gnat its next to impossible to wipe out a decentralized organization like the Hezbollah or Hamas. But for the sack of thier security and thier future, Israel has to engage them.

You're just starting to catch on to that now? How many years did it take for you to figure that out? Frankly, Israel has to make it socially unacceptable for organizations like Hexbollah and Hamas to exist. But as long as they continue to play the part of oppressor that will never happen. As long as they continue to hide behind America's skirt and stick their tongue out at the Arab states, that will never happen. The only way this ends peacefully and exterminates Hezbollah and Hamas is to intergrate Arabs into their culture and vice versa. They need to open up their society MORE and give Arabs (nee Palestinians) a chance to play important roles in the direction of the region.

Tho I don't think that this is a conflict thats going to escalate to involve other countries, I think its going to be a years long conflict that will produce bloodshed of unprecedented proportion among civillian casualties. Hezbollah has played Israel and everybody else, and they're going to come out of it with less damage then Israel or Lebanon. Hows that for justice.

We'll see. I think this is still a powder keg waiting to explode. All its going to take is the Israeli invasion to put other countries on higher alert. At that point, all bets are off. A simple miscommunication could lead to others entering the fray. As soon as that third party gets dragged into this, by intention or by accident, its going to draw the region ito all out war.

[Looger]

why anyone trying to defend israel would bring up the circumstances of its creation, is shocking in of itself.

1897 first zionist conference, theodor hertzl says that the zionists must colonize palestine.

early 20th century, extremists start moving to palestine, where sephardic jews have been living with arabs for centuries. they start displacing villages and killing the innocent. they are after all, crazy sick extremists. some arabs organize and respond by killing innocent jews.

balfour declaration 1917 palestine is promised to the zionists if they can get the US into the war. they do.

chazz wiezman (sp?) accepts king faisal's decree that an area of palestine be set up for a jewish homeland.

the extreme zionists get into bed with nazism and convince many jews that the nazis just want to live seperately. they in many cases are the trusted voice that leads jews onto trains. they need their six million to fulfill prophecy - that number is mentioned in zionist books and documents in the 1930s. hertzl has been quoted as saying, paraphrasing, 'given the choice between a jew living somewhere besides palestine and being dead, i will choose dead'. the british zionists in fact talk the british government out of taking jews in from the third reich.

the creation of israel in 1948 is a slam dunk, as clearly the jews need a homeland. but when the arabs attack this tiny nation keep two things in mind:

1) they are responding to the sick ****ed up **** that the extreme zionists had been up to since the late 19th century, the details of which curdle the blood. after all the talmud says to put them to the sword, man woman and child. perhaps the sickest aspect of all this is that a lot of israeli immigrants are simply people fleeing the horrors of the holocaust, and had nothing to do with the massacre of arabs. they weren't looking for the war that their zionist leaders had been pushing for.

2) jordan invades syria in the 1948 war. arab solidarity???

i believe that israel should exist. i don't think you can displace them.

but people should really look into what the causes of this conflict are.

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

You're just starting to catch on to that now? How many years did it take for you to figure that out? Frankly, Israel has to make it socially unacceptable for organizations like Hexbollah and Hamas to exist. But as long as they continue to play the part of oppressor that will never happen. As long as they continue to hide behind America's skirt and stick their tongue out at the Arab states, that will never happen. The only way this ends peacefully and exterminates Hezbollah and Hamas is to intergrate Arabs into their culture and vice versa. They need to open up their society MORE and give Arabs (nee Palestinians) a chance to play important roles in the direction of the region.

Firstly, how exactly is Isreal playing the role of the oppressor? On a daily basis over the last several years have had to tolerate suicide bombers and now have the kidnapping of their soldiers. They havn't told the Arabs how to run their lives but simply will not negotiate with terrorists (of which Hezbollah is a recognized terrorist organization by many different countries).

Secondly, I don't see how the Arabs are not being given the choice of playing important roles in the direction of the region. In fact by sending in suicide bombers and kidnapping soldiers they are making a choice of the role they are doing. Unless you are suggesting that Isreal simply opens up their gates to the Arabs and puts them in control of their government, which I don't think you would suggest that as that would make no sense at all, right?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Can't agree with you. I think the force with greatest power has to lay the olive branch on the table. When the neighborhood bully is kicking the crap out of the skinny little nerd at recess, and all the other kids are looking on, the skinny little kid doesn't win points by calling for a truce.

I agree.

That said, if the skinny little kid is throwing rocks at the bully and finally the bully snaps and beats him up, I find it hard to believe that most would still blame the bully.

Should the bully still show restraint and only "send a message" to leave him alone? IMO, yes... but that doesn't always work either.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

Firstly, how exactly is Isreal playing the role of the oppressor? On a daily basis over the last several years have had to tolerate suicide bombers and now have the kidnapping of their soldiers. They havn't told the Arabs how to run their lives but simply will not negotiate with terrorists (of which Hezbollah is a recognized terrorist organization by many different countries).

How have they been oppressed? Hmmm, how about displacement? How about being second class citizens in their own land? How about having checkpoints to go through to do everything? How about the big wall? How about social profiling? Oppression comes in many many forms, and its a very personal thing.

What you view as oppression may not be the same as someone else. I know I feel oppressed when Americans make fun of the way I say certain things (PRO-cess, PRO-cedure, etc.). The furst few times is funny and all, but when they keep nattering at you about it, it becomes old and becomes oppressive. You may want to ask the englophones of Quebec whether they feel oppressed by the language laws there. As I said, oppression getsa to you, and at some point you can only take so much more. I swear, the next Yank that makes a crack when I say process is going to be picking their ****ing teeth up!

Secondly, I don't see how the Arabs are not being given the choice of playing important roles in the direction of the region. In fact by sending in suicide bombers and kidnapping soldiers they are making a choice of the role they are doing. Unless you are suggesting that Isreal simply opens up their gates to the Arabs and puts them in control of their government, which I don't think you would suggest that as that would make no sense at all, right?

Wake the **** up! The actions of a few do not make the whole evil. The vast majority of Arabs are peaceful and try to live in peaceful coexistence. But all the Arabs get punished by the Israelis when something happens. You don't want to believe that, but its true. Jesus, just look at the treatment of Arabs in America after 9/11. It was deplorable, and this is a country that doesn't have the pre-disposition to hating Arabs. There is a reason why all of that hatred festers and groups like Hezbollah garner the support they do. The people are tired of the **** the Jews do to them. They polarize to their own and get swallowed up in the frustration, turning to the extremists.

Personally, I think that Israel does do a pretty good job at trying to work with the Arabs, but that does not mean there is huge room for imporvement. When a group is elected as the representatives of the people, the right thing to do is to invite them to the table and break bread. Imagine what would have happened if Ottawa had not acknowledged the Bloc Quebecois? You think the seperatist movement wouldn't have been given a massive shot in the arm and the last vote wouldn't have gone in a different direct? The people have the right to determine who speaks for them. Israel must accept that choice and negotiate accordingly. Without first acknowledging and negotiating, the Israeli government does not ackowledge the Palestinians and that leads to the oppression that we just can't seem to wrap out westernized brains around. The rights of the Palestinians must be acknowledged if democracy is to flourish in the region. If those rights, and the will of the people, continue to be ignored, there will never be democracy in the Middle East. Without that acknowledgement and cooperation, you will continue to force people to side with the extremeists.

Question: Why did the United States select George Washington to be their first President? It was a job he did not want, and was forced into it. Why were the people so admant and him being the first President?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Can't agree with you. I think the force with greatest power has to lay the olive branch on the table. When the neighborhood bully is kicking the crap out of the skinny little nerd at recess, and all the other kids are looking on, the skinny little kid doesn't win points by calling for a truce.

But if the skinny little kid is throwing rocks at the bully and then hiding behind a bunch of girls and snickering about it. And then telling everyone else in the school that he's going to sneak up on the bully and bash his head with a stick?

Israel shouldn't have to be the one that steps back, and the reason that I say this, is that if Israel stopped today, and sued for peace, Hezbollah might give them a 6 month respite, but the attacks would start again, and a re-armed Hezbollah with longer ranged rockets would emerge.

If Lebanon gave a sign of faith by signaling to the international community that they were deploying thier army, and going after Hezbollah, then it would kick the legs out from Israel as far as defending thier borders. But instead Lebanon has ignored a UN mandate to disarm Hezbollah, and in thier last statement to the press, basically ignored Hezbollah as the causitive factor in this current crisis, and blamed Israel.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Oh boy! The status quo! More oppression for the people who lived for generations on the lands Israel now occupies! Wow, what a victory!

Just a clarification, if Israel restored to status quo Ante, and pulled thier military back inside of thier borders, then what lands are we talking about? If I remember your argument a few pages back, you stated that Israel should forget about the holocaust, If you go by that argument, Palestine, Lebanon, and the various extremist groups are going to have to forget about thier land claims and learn to co-exist with Israel.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Neither can I. I can't believe that anyone would turn to these clowns to protect themselves and represent them. But you know what, I can't believe that the American people would elect George W. Bush as president of the United States (TWICE!!!) to protect them and represent them. People on both sides appear to do stupid things. Fact of the matter is that the people do view Hezbollah as their protector and we have to accept that. We don't have to like it, but we do have to accept that. And why do we have to accept it? Because when we don't, we force our beliefs on them, and we force them to live to our standard, not their own. That is a form of oppression, and its something that countries like ours are not supposed to support. Ironically, its something our governments do all the time and support other governments that do it to their own people.

I don't want to get into a debate about Bush, I'm not his greatest fan. However at some point a legitimate country like Lebanon is going to have to seriously look at the standards of conduct within thier own national borders, groups like Hezbollah which are actually a great threat to the nation that thier based in have to be eliminated.

On the whole forcing standards thing, its pretty easy to solve that, all these countries have to do is refuse foreign aid from the states, and foreign expertise, and business. Isolate themselves from the international community, and they can set any kind of standard that they want. Its worked pretty well in North Korea.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

And secretly Israel wants the same thing. Those casualties inside their own borders give them the excuse to broaden the conflict and slowly chew away more and more of the countries surrounding them. If Israel were so concerned about these missiles being launched into their homeland they would deploy their Patriot batteries to the north and eliminate them. I'm sure America would be extremely thankful for the real world data those intercepts could provide and would give them MORE free weapons to "protect" themselves.

I can't deny the top part, and I'm sure that Israel to some extent was looking for that final excuse to go after Hezbollah, and the continous rocket attacks are a giving Israel a reason to continue what they're doing. If these countries surrounding Israel would either control thier extremist elements, or recognize Israel's right to be there it would go a long way, because frankly Israel is not going anywhere, and with the exception or Iran (which I have my doubts from a conventional military standpoint) has the military to challenge Israel.

On your second point, there's no guarantee that something like a line of patriots is going to stop a determined attack, and it dosen't guarantee success 100% of the time. The only way to protect your citizen's from a ballistic attack is to take out the capability to launch those missiles. In military matters, the best defense is an overwhelming offense.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Hmmm, I haven't heard a single person say Hezbollah was innocent here. I haven't heard a single person say that their actions have not been vile and that they are not helping the situation. Hezbollah is indeed responsible for many of the things you suggest, but when you are taking on a greater power, you fight in the most effective manner. As military man you know this. Or are you suggesting that if America invaded Canada you would just lay your weapons down and let the Yanks take turns on your wife and kids. Or would you fight with any means possible?

Granted, but I wouldn't personally, defend my wife from being raped, by going down to washington and raping random woman. I wouldn't defend my family by going down and shooting another family. But I think for the most part there's a different value system for trained professional soldiers, and the nutbars that make up Hezbollah.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Hilarious! It's okay to say that Arabs should be wiped from the earth, but its terrible to say the Jews should be wiped from the earth? Holy double standard Batman! Frankly, the earth would be much better off if the whole ****ing species were eliminated! Here's to the elimination of man from the face of the earth!

Ok, I have to admit that I was a little insulted by this. Nowhere was I talking about genocide, or wiping out Arabs. Arab's shouldn't be wiped from the face of the earth, but the radical elements in Hezbollah, and Hamas, and these other nut cases who cause death and terror, yeah they need to be exterminated like rats.

I think I'm smart enough to seperate Arab's, and innocents from Hezbollah.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

You're just starting to catch on to that now? How many years did it take for you to figure that out? Frankly, Israel has to make it socially unacceptable for organizations like Hexbollah and Hamas to exist. But as long as they continue to play the part of oppressor that will never happen. As long as they continue to hide behind America's skirt and stick their tongue out at the Arab states, that will never happen. The only way this ends peacefully and exterminates Hezbollah and Hamas is to intergrate Arabs into their culture and vice versa. They need to open up their society MORE and give Arabs (nee Palestinians) a chance to play important roles in the direction of the region.

Hezbollah dosen't care if they're socially acceptable, because they'll always find somebody to hate and murder. your statement about hiding behind the U.S. skirt, could be flipped around as Hezbollah continues to hide behind innocent civillians and stick thier toungues out as Israel.

Wouldn't Hezbollah also been an impedment to opening up society and integrating Arabs a chance to play roles in the region?

Also aren't there palestines in the Israel government, and high ranking officials in Israel's government? Palestine citizens have been denied opportunity and the fault can lay at Israel's feet, but you also have to look at the people who have represented Palestine on the international stage and at the negotiating stage.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

We'll see. I think this is still a powder keg waiting to explode. All its going to take is the Israeli invasion to put other countries on higher alert. At that point, all bets are off. A simple miscommunication could lead to others entering the fray. As soon as that third party gets dragged into this, by intention or by accident, its going to draw the region ito all out war.

Here's hoping not.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But if the skinny little kid is throwing rocks at the bully and then hiding behind a bunch of girls and snickering about it. And then telling everyone else in the school that he's going to sneak up on the bully and bash his head with a stick?

Good analogy. Let's take it a step further. I agree the skinny kid should get a beat down but should the bully then beat the crap out of not only the skinny kid, but also the girls he's hiding behind, the families of the girls he hiding behind and for good measure burn down their houses too?

[longsuffering]

For a personal account of what is happening to Beirut, I suggest you read this:http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-dep...e#contentSwap2

It's not an unbiased account of events but it would be a mistake to dismiss it outright. It is written by someone who clearly loves Beirut and its people.

The writer does not excuse the actions of Hezbollah, although he is very critical of Israel. The article does put the 'collateral damage' into perspective.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Good analogy. Let's take it a step further. I agree the skinny kid should get a beat down but should the bully then beat the crap out of not only the skinny kid, but also the girls he's hiding behind, the families of the girls he hiding behind and for good measure burn down their houses too?

Lets keep playing the analogy game. Lets say that the bully's in his house minding his own business and the skinny little kid is throwing rocks through his windows and kills the Bully's sister, and his dog, but the real catcher is that the skinny kid, who's pretty much a bully and a crap disturber in his own right is firing his rocks from his back yard with a high powered sling shot and is shielding himself behind his unaware baby brother while he's firing?

[Lucky boy]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Lets keep playing the analogy game. Lets say that the bully's in his house minding his own business and the skinny little kid is throwing rocks through his windows and kills the Bully's sister, and his dog, but the real catcher is that the skinny kid, who's pretty much a bully and a crap disturber in his own right is firing his rocks from his back yard with a high powered sling shot and is shielding himself behind his unaware baby brother while he's firing?

Yes, we already established that the skinny kid needs a beating. What Isreal is doing is bombing Lebanon 20 years back.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Well, the other Israel/Lebanon thread is now anything but.........so I'll keep using this thread instead.

In latest news, Israel is in Lebanon, and have taken over one of the towns in the south.

Denying that it plans a full-scale ground invasion, the Israeli military entered the southern Lebanese village of Maroun al-Ras on Saturday to establish its "first foothold" in a security buffer along the border, the Israel Defense Forces said.

The Israeli military flushed Hezbollah fighters out of the village and will hold it until it can be handed over to a multinational force or the Lebanese army, the IDF said, adding that the security buffer will hamstring Hezbollah's ability to launch rockets into northern Israel.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Any word on the Lebanese army and their actions? Are they going to enter the fray? How long before Syria comes charging in?

[if.away]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

How long before Syria comes charging in?

LOL. Like Assad is ######ed enough to do that.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Any word on the Lebanese army and their actions? Are they going to enter the fray? How long before Syria comes charging in?

The Lebanese president said that government troops will be used to defend Lebanon if Israelis invade. However, the Israeli ground forces already entered Lebanon and there has been no response, so I think it is all talk. They know that they don't stand a chance.

[Azure]

Hey guys, take a load of this...

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51116

Same guy that calls for assissination of foreign leaders?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Hey guys, take a load of this...

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51116

Same guy that calls for assissination of foreign leaders?

I don't follow Pat but I was under the impression that Georgie was his poster boy. Now, not so much.

Sometimes I can't figure out if Bush is just incompetent or his plan is to lead us to the Bible's Armageddon.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I don't follow Pat but I was under the impression that Georgie was his poster boy. Now, not so much.

Sometimes I can't figure out if Bush is just incompetent or his plan is to lead us to the Bible's Armageddon.

My thoughts exactly.