Man stabbed, then decapitated on grey hound bus

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Daradon

I said, we'll wait to see what the experts say.

ermmmm Polak has a business degree..........The Experts have spoken...

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

ermmmm Polak has a business degree..........The Experts have spoken...

Hey hey, be nice, I think we're actually getting somewhere finally. Our positions seem closer today.

As an addition, like I said before, this decision is still under review. It's quite possible the doctors and people working on the case say he's not ready to be on his own. Then it's much ado about nothing. For another year anyway, lol.

[pylon]

I guess what kinda bugs me in this whole argument, and this whole scenario, is there is this incredible sympathy for Vincent Li. Massive resources are being thrown at him in the hopes of making him better, and all these internet psychiatrists are rushing to the front of the line to hug him, and give him a job in a day care.

What isn't being discussed, is how much public resources are being expended on the real living victims? The family of the victim? All those people that had to sit through that horror show that day? My guess is slim to none as it pushed one over the edge already. Those are the people most deserving of assistance, not Li.

I would love to hear from some of them, and how the government is throwing millions of dollars at them, trying to make them better.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Hey hey, be nice, I think we're actually getting somewhere finally. Our positions seem closer today.

As an addition, like I said before, this decision is still under review. It's quite possible the doctors and people working on the case say he's not ready to be on his own. Then it's much ado about nothing. For another year anyway, lol.

The review is really about where he will lay his head.


He has been having unsupervised time in Selkirk (where I have family) and Winnipeg (up to a full day pass unsupervised).


I echo your concerns about his medication, but in these situations (again like you) I have to defer to the professionals that are making the decision. I mentioned this before, but those professionals live in the same society in which Mr Li will live.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by pylon

and all these internet psychiatrists are rushing to the front of the line to hug him, and give him a job in a day care.

Oh lord heaven above me.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by pylon

I guess what kinda bugs me in this whole argument, and this whole scenario, is there is this incredible sympathy for Vincent Li. Massive resources are being thrown at him in the hopes of making him better, and all these internet psychiatrists are rushing to the front of the line to hug him, and give him a job in a day care.

What isn't being discussed, is how much public resources are being expended on the real living victims? The family of the victim? All those people that had to sit through that horror show that day? My guess is slim to none as it pushed one over the edge already. Those are the people most deserving of assistance, not Li.

I would love to hear from some of them, and how the government is throwing millions of dollars at them, trying to make them better.

I am not sure who is "rushing to the front of the line to hug him", perhaps you could name names.

Is it possible that all individuals involved either directly or the periphery be "deserving of assistance"?

[pylon]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Oh lord heaven above me.

Instead of zeroing in on the obviously hyperbolic part of my statement, why don't you address the rest of it? I see next to nobody giving two sh#ts about the other 40 some odd people who's lives will never be the same.

[polak]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

ermmmm Polak has a business degree..........The Experts have spoken...

And my buddy, that did first aid once, I think.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

And my buddy, that did first aid once, I think.

To be clear your useful contribution to this thread ended many posts ago.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by pylon

I guess what kinda bugs me in this whole argument, and this whole scenario, is there is this incredible sympathy for Vincent Li. Massive resources are being thrown at him in the hopes of making him better, and all these internet psychiatrists are rushing to the front of the line to hug him, and give him a job in a day care.

What isn't being discussed, is how much public resources are being expended on the real living victims? The family of the victim? All those people that had to sit through that horror show that day? My guess is slim to none as it pushed one over the edge already. Those are the people most deserving of assistance, not Li.

I would love to hear from some of them, and how the government is throwing millions of dollars at them, trying to make them better.

Not sure anyone is more or less deserving, but you are right, there probably isn't enough time or money being dedicated to the family of the victim.

First start would be to call him by name. Tim McLean. Not 'the victim'. When I jumped back into this thread the other day, I admit I had to look it up. But look it up I did.

From there, we can do our best in society to improve the situation. On a small scale this did affect us all. There is nothing stopping you from starting fundraisers, honoring the memory, etc. As I said, at the very least, use his name. It's easy to cast stones, but all these justice hawks are still more focused on Li, than 'the victim' though they say they aren't.

Lastly, the money that is being spent on Li would be spent anyway. It is just as expensive, if not more, to incarcerate someone than to rehabilitate them. So the question or comment of 'all this money' doesn't really amount to much. It'd be being spent anyway.



This isn't meant as an attack against you Pylon, as you do bring up a good point. It's just as a reminder that it's easy to talk about what's wrong, it's much harder to actually do something about it. For all the calls to justice we have heard here and elsewhere, which of those people can really say they've helped the family, or society, in the wake of this? How many people, who claim to want to talk about the family more than Li, still call Tim 'the victim'?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

The review is really about where he will lay his head.


He has been having unsupervised time in Selkirk (where I have family) and Winnipeg (up to a full day pass unsupervised).


I echo your concerns about his medication, but in these situations (again like you) I have to defer to the professionals that are making the decision. I mentioned this before, but those professionals live in the same society in which Mr Li will live.

Agreed. Just being honest about my feelings. Can't really call others out, but hide the fact that I'd be crapping my pants if I was sharing a home with him.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by pylon

I guess what kinda bugs me in this whole argument, and this whole scenario, is there is this incredible sympathy for Vincent Li. Massive resources are being thrown at him in the hopes of making him better, and all these internet psychiatrists are rushing to the front of the line to hug him, and give him a job in a day care.

What isn't being discussed, is how much public resources are being expended on the real living victims? The family of the victim? All those people that had to sit through that horror show that day? My guess is slim to none as it pushed one over the edge already. Those are the people most deserving of assistance, not Li.

I would love to hear from some of them, and how the government is throwing millions of dollars at them, trying to make them better.

False dilemma, you're doing it right.

[polak]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

To be clear your useful contribution to this thread ended many posts ago.

I still haven't got an answer from anyone on what we do if

A) He does it again
B) What if he killed 23 people instead of 1

[pylon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

False dilemma, you're doing it right.

It's only a false dilemma if it is proven to be.

I would be happy to eat crow, and retract the statement, if someone can show me what is being done to help the victims. And "Help is available if you ask... and book an appointment, and wait 8 weeks to see that specialist." is not the help I am talking about. What immediate, 24 hour, team of specialists, was put in place for the victims, like was put in place for Li?

We likely wouldn't have a dead Mountie if the same attention to Li's rehab, was being spent on the witnesses.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

I still haven't got an answer from anyone on what we do if

A) He does it again
B) What if he killed 23 people instead of 1

A) I can't answer, but I am sure the courts can.

B) "What if's" are a fools game. I mean what if a big hand came out of the sky a squished you. We can only look at the facts of thie particualr situation. What if he tried to stab him but was unsuccessful....


I can only suspect that people are ignoring your questions because of the quality of them.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by pylon

It's only a false dilemma if it is proven to be.

I would be happy to eat crow, and retract the statement, if someone can show me what is being done to help the victims. And "Help is available if you ask... and book an appointment, and wait 8 weeks to see that specialist." is not the help I am talking about. What immediate, 24 hour, team of specialists, was put in place for the victims, like was put in place for Li?

We likely wouldn't have a dead Mountie if the same attention to Li's rehab, was being spent on the witnesses.

I was more referring to your claim that the internet psychiatrists were more concerned with Li's well-being than the survivors. I think if you checked the posting history of most of us, you'd probably be able to discern that we'd be in favour of more assistance for these people. The problem mental illness, trauma assistance, etc., always runs up against is a lack of funding and resources. And if you really want to get into it, the political aspects that often cause cuts or a lack of funding in these areas are often exacerbated by those parties in power who claim to be fiscal conservatives. So I guess I would argue that if you're someone who generally supports these parties, then the pissing and moaning about a lack of resources comes off as a bit disingenuous.

As for the rest of yours and polak's arguments regarding public safety, unforgivable acts, etc., I'd ask you to consider the logistics of what you're suggesting. This isn't meant to be a slippery-slope argument, but logistically, if your argument is one of public safety, shouldn't we be putting all schizophrenics who ever have murderous hallucinations away? I mean that way we can be sure that they won't harm the general population. Like you said, there's zero guarantee these people won't stop taking their meds and just go out and commit atrocities. Why wait until they step over those uncrossable lines where someone actually gets hurt in the first place? Hell, we should probably extend that to anyone who ever has violent thoughts in the first place, regardless of mental illness. Look at the number of people without mental illness that commit violence. Clearly we can't guarantee that they'll never act on those thoughts.

[polak]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

A) I can't answer, but I am sure the courts can.

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

B) "What if's" are a fools game. I mean what if a big hand came out of the sky a squished you. We can only look at the facts of thie particualr situation. What if he tried to stab him but was unsuccessful....


I can only suspect that people are ignoring your questions because of the quality of them.

Just cause you choose to not answer them doesn't make it invalid.

It's not just a silly "what if" question. If he killed 25 people instead of 1, would we be letting him off unsupervised? Nothing has changed in terms of Li's stability or disease. He had one episode but this time, instead of killing one person, he killed 25.

If the answer to that question is not a resounding "Yes. I would still agree with the doctors and support him being allowed to go into the city unsupervised" then there is an inherent flaw in your logic. That would mean that you are basing your opinion on the outcome and severity of his "one-off" episode and not his current mental state, which then puts your whole opinion under fire as your interpretation on how "severe" that episode was, is probably far different than the opinion of the victims family and the people on that bus.

Next time answer properly before dismissing a question.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

I still haven't got an answer from anyone on what we do if

A) He does it again
B) What if he killed 23 people instead of 1

A) He goes back to jail/institution and probably never sees the light of day again, and the medical officials who presided over him originally probably lose their careers.

B) He didn't kill 23 people, so the argument is moot. We can turn this right back around and ask what if we hadn't killed anyone but had just attempted to. They're of equal relevance.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

Just cause you choose to not answer them doesn't make it invalid.

It's not just a silly "what if" question. If he killed 25 people instead of 1, would we be letting him off unsupervised? Nothing has changed in terms of Li's stability or disease. He had one episode but this time, instead of killing one person, he killed 25.

If the answer to that question is not a resounding "Yes. I would still agree with the doctors and support him being allowed to go into the city unsupervised" then there is an inherent flaw in your logic. That would mean that you are basing your opinion on the outcome and severity of his "one-off" episode and not his current mental state, which then puts your whole opinion under fire as your interpretation on how "severe" that episode was, is probably far different than the opinion of the victims family and the people on that bus.

Next time answer properly before dismissing a question.

Says the guy that listed a "business degree" as his ability to comment on the mental state of an individual he has never met.........

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

If the answer to that question is not a resounding "Yes. I would still agree with the doctors and support him being allowed to go into the city unsupervised" then there is an inherent flaw in your logic. That would mean that you are basing your opinion on the outcome and severity of his "one-off" episode and not his current mental state, which then puts your whole opinion under fire as your interpretation on how "severe" that episode was, is probably far different than the opinion of the victims family and the people on that bus.

Next time answer properly before dismissing a question.

Because it's impossible to deliberate on both of these things at the same time?