He was found innocent on the grounds that he is mentally insane.
That caveat, imo, should come with similar treatment as being criminally guilty.
Also, another interesting proposition is at what point should the system "give up" on him? If re-offends once? twice? at what point do you lock him up and throw away the key?
INTERVIEW WITH A KILLER: VINCE LI SPEAKS On May 19, 2012, I, Chris Summerville, CEO of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, held my regular meeting with Vince Li, the person living with schizophrenia who beheaded Tim McLean. I have been visiting Li on an average of once every two months since his remand to Selkirk Mental Health Centre 4 four years ago. I have decided that Mr. Li's story needs to be told, to add a human touch to a horrible tragedy. What we have here are two victims and two families who are victims of untreated, uncontrolled psychosis. Before I do any interview regarding the Greyhound Bus tragedy, I always ask myself, "What if it had been my 25-year-old daughter?" My sympathy to Ms. de Delley [Tim McLean's mom] and her family are real. And yet, I also ask, "What if it had been my son who had killed Tim McLean in such a ghastly and grotesque fashion?" I hope that such self-questioning softens my response to the many questions I have been asked about my personal and professional knowledge of Mr. Li. There are no easy answers to the many faceted questions that bombard both families and the media. However, I think the media has been more favourable to the McLean family, probably because public sentiment is on their side and we as a country have entered a period of "tough on crime" with little attention paid to restorative justice, rehabilitation, recovery and redemption, or the influence and role of mental illness in this particular most unfortunate incident. What follows is the result of an edited interview that took place at Selkirk Mental Health Centre after Mr. Li and I had enjoyed a Chinese meal that I had brought to him. Mr. Li was soft spoken, using simple English as English is not his first language. His answers were rather direct and succinct, revealing a person who has given much contemplation to this tragedy and "his guilt." The formal interview, which lasted about 45 minutes, is as follows, verbatim: - Tell me about your background
I am a 44 years old and grew up in northeastern China in the province of Liaoning. My mother and father are still living. I have an older brother who is a businessman and a younger sister who is a secretary. They know about the Greyhounds bus situation, but my mother and father do not.
My wife and I immigrated to Winnipeg, Canada in June, 2001. I had studied as a computer engineer for 4 years in China. But I could not find a job in Canada. I worked at McDonalds, Meatland Foods and at Grant Memorial Baptist Church. - Do you have a spirituality?
I believe in Jesus Christ. He is my Saviour. I try to follow God. - When did you begin to experience schizophrenia?
In 2004. I didn't know what it was. I now know what it is.
I began to hear voices that normal people do not hear. I thought I heard the voice of God telling me to write down my journey.
The voice told me that I was the third story of the Bible. That I was like the second coming of Jesus.
I was to save people from a space alien attack. That is why I traveled around the country.
I am not sure of all the places I went to. I now know that it was schizophrenia I was suffering from. - Why did you do what you did on the bus?
I bought a knife at Canadian Tire. I bought it for any emergency for the journey to protect myself from the aliens.
I was really scared. I remember cutting off his head. I believed he was an alien.
The voices told me to kill him. That he would kill me or others. I do not believe this now. It was totally wrong. It was my fault. I sinned. But it was the schizophrenia. - What else do you remember about the incident?
I try to forget it. I try to stay busy here. It is painful to think about. - How do you feel about what happened?
I feel nervous. I feel painful. I am embarrassed. It was wrong. - Do you understand why people are scared of you?
Yes. I don't think I will ever do it again. I didn't know at that time I had schizophrenia. Now I do. - What would you say to Ms. de Delley and Tim McLean's family?
I am really sorry for what I did. If I could talk to her directly I would do anything for their family. I would ask forgiveness, but I know it would be hard to accept. - How has the time been at Selkirk Mental Health Centre?
I know that I suffer from schizophrenia. The treatment team gives me a chance to recover, to be normal. I am glad to be taking the medication. - Do you think you are getting better?
Yes. My thinking is becoming normal. I don't think weird things. I take my medication, Olanzapine, everyday. I am glad to take it. I don't have any weird voices any more. - How do we know you will take your medication when you get out on your own?
I would be glad to be under a treatment order because medication helps me. It is very important. I don't want to do what I did ever again. - How does it make you feel that most people do not think you should get a pass to walk around in Selkirk? Do you understand their fear?
I understand people are scared because of my behaviour on the Greyhound bus. I am not at risk for anybody. I don't believe in aliens. I don't hear voices.
I would call my doctor if I heard voices again. Yes, I understand their fear. - Some say the RCMP should have killed you that night.
I should have been killed at that time. I still believe that. But I am thankful that the RCMP didn't. - What is schizophrenia? What are you learning?
It is hearing voices or having delusions. You don't know what is real. I need to take medication on time.
I also have to have meaningful activity, something to do. I have to learn how to handle stress. - What helps you deal with stress?
Taking my medication. Exercising and doing Bible study with the chaplain here. - Do you have side-effects from the medication?
Yes. I sleep too much. I feel tired a lot and I have gained some weight. - Do you believe you should be under a treatment order?
I should be here. I should be under a treatment order. - If you ever got out of Selkirk Mental Health Centre, what would you do?
I hope to leave one day, but I have to make sure it wouldn't happen again. That there would be no voices.
I would change my name to be anonymous. But I would still be in touch with my doctor. - What do you think of Tim's Law that any mentally insane person who kills someone would never be released?
I don't think so, that that should happen. Mental illness is an illness. It is treatable.
My schizophrenia is not the real me, but it is an illness. - How would you know you were getting sick again?
Hearing voices, stopping my medication, and starting to believe in aliens. God would not tell me to do something bad. - How do you feel about what you are reading in the newspapers?
I don't read the papers because I don't want to be reminded of what happened on the Greyhound bus because it was so bad and wrong. - Are you happy?
No. - Will you ever be happy?
No. I can never forget the Greyhound bus. - Any final words?
I would like to say to Tim McLean's mother I am sorry for killing your son. I am sorry for the pain I have caused.
I wished I could reduce that pain.
__________________
Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Corporal Jean-Marc H. BECHARD, 6 Aug 1993
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Originally Posted by dissentowner
The system is broke. This guy should never be free, mentally not guilty be damned. Now that he is mentally sound on meds he should stand trial for murder. I understand about mental health but the bottom line is this guy murdered a young man and his family has to live with the fact there is zero justice for him.
I guess it depends on weather a person wants justice or revenge.
If Li is able to live a normal life while he stays on his medications, what purpose would it serve to have him locked behind bars for the rest of his life. Frankly I see none.
I had a HS friend who tried to choke his mother to death (police arrived in time) and was later diagnosed with schizophrenia. He later comitted suicide but if he were alive today I would not be wishing that he spent the rest of his life behind bars.
What justice? Explain how a man kills and decapitates an innocent person on a bus and is allowed to walk away scott free justice? Oh, that is right, he was not mentally responsible. There is the elephant in the room because anybody who randomly kills someone is obviously mentally unstable and has serious mental issues, so should not every serial killer be mentally unstable? Where do you draw the line?
He's been incarcerated for a little under seven years now. That is not "scott free", but rather something akin to a manslaughter sentence.
You may see it as semantics but not criminally responsible does not equal innocent. Just as not guilty does not equal innocence as well.
No but "unsupervised visits into a major city" = pretty damn innocent for a guy that cut someones head off on a bus. It also puts a lot of faith into the judgement call of a panel of doctors.
I hope those doctors are somehow held liable if they screw up and another innocent person is killed.
What justice? Explain how a man kills and decapitates an innocent person on a bus and is allowed to walk away scott free justice? Oh, that is right, he was not mentally responsible. There is the elephant in the room because anybody who randomly kills someone is obviously mentally unstable and has serious mental issues, so should not every serial killer be mentally unstable? Where do you draw the line?
Justice? To me, it's finding (and implementing) the course of action which minimizes harm and maximizes benefit to individuals and society.
Thankfully I don't have to 'draw the line' but I understand that there are people who have taken the time and developed the expertise to figure out what the lines are and where they should be drawn.
The fact that you confuse an act that's irrational to you as a 'mentally unstable/serious mental issue' is concerning however. There are many acts of violence (included murder) that are committed by those who are deemed 'sane'.
Of all the people charged with murder in the last 5-years, how many have been found not-guilty by reason of insanity?
It does not seem like it is that many.
__________________
"Teach a man to reason, and he'll think for a lifetime"
~P^2
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Originally Posted by dissentowner
Well, great, in that interview he says he does not think he will ever do it again, not that he won't. Yup, I would be totally sold having this guy move into my neighbourhood near my kids. I will say that at least it has a better probable outcome than releasing repeat sex offenders, that part of the system is broken too. I am not the judge and I don't make the rules though, I just send them through the justice system and after that whatever. I don't think the average person realizes just how down frustrating it is to see what I see happen in courts all the time.
As long as he stays on his meds he's not a threat to anyone.
I guess it depends on weather a person wants justice or revenge.
If Li is able to live a normal life while he stays on his medications, what purpose would it serve to have him locked behind bars for the rest of his life. Frankly I see none.
I had a HS friend who tried to choke his mother to death (police arrived in time) and was later diagnosed with schizophrenia. He later comitted suicide but if he were alive today I would not be wishing that he spent the rest of his life behind bars.
Well, I am sorry to hear about your friend and nobody wins in situations like this. The worst part of my job is talking with victims and their families when someone does something to shatter their lives and then pays a small price for it.
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Well, I am sorry to hear about your friend and nobody wins in situations like this. The worst part of my job is talking with victims and their families when someone does something to shatter their lives and then pays a small price for it.
It's just my opinion but I have a belief that if people are educated on schizophrenia they would not be so harsh in their judgement. My friend was able to live a number of years working in the community and posed no threat to anyone including his family.
The stupidest thing I ever did on here was reveal my career because it ruined being some anonymous place where I could voice an opinion of my own without it having relate back to that. What I do for a living I do well and though I may not agree with everything in our justice system that does not mean I let that affect my job. I am done with the OT threads, I will stick to the hockey side of CP from now on.
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And yet deeming someone "sane" or "not sane" is a #### shot by doctors and an opinion. A serial killer has no remorse, no sense of right or wrong. They have an overwhelming urge to hurt others and when they do that is the only thing that makes them feel something. Would you not consider that a disease or not mentally sane? Again, where do you set the line?
I'd consider it a pathology, but again, I'm no expert.
Thankfully the standard isn't that having a mental illness means you don't get away without punishment (otherwise my depression would let me not have to pay my photo radar tickets.
My, admittedly limited, understanding is that one has to be found not criminally responsible:
16. (1) No person is criminally responsible for an act committed or an omission made while suffering from a mental disorder that rendered the person incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of the act or omission or of knowing that it was wrong. [5]
So a psychopath seems to be someone who does something that they know is 'wrong' (i.e. illegal) but just doesn't care, while someone who is not criminally responsible does something illegal but can't know/understand it's wrong.
While there is lots of space for grey area, it seems not unreasonable that lines can effectively be drawn by those who understand these issues best.
__________________
"Teach a man to reason, and he'll think for a lifetime"
The stupidest thing I ever did on here was reveal my career because it ruined being some anonymous place where I could voice an opinion of my own without it having relate back to that. What I do for a living I do well and though I may not agree with everything in our justice system that does not mean I let that affect my job. I am done with the OT threads, I will stick to the hockey side of CP from now on.
I would have hoped you would have realized given your line of work that heaven forbid if something hit the fan and they put the connection between your posts/opinion on CP and your line of work, you'd be ####ed.
There's a few law enforcement members on this board, myself included, but I at least attempt to practice restrain and be articulate in my opinion and why I think that way and leave opinion out of it. Further, I definitely don't take stuff that happens in my job, through the court systems, etc. personally. You'll kill yourself doing that.
Best of luck.
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I don't believe you can blame a schizophrenic for their actions while ill anymore than an epileptic for having seizure.
He knows he's ill now - he knows he needs to be on meds to control his illness. If the doctors monitoring him for the rest of his life believe the meds are working then I think he should get a chance to start over.
That being said - while he's medicated and lucid he should know that if he ever goes off his meds for any reason that his freedom is gone. To stop taking his meds would be a choice made by him while cognizant and aware and that should never be excused.
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I don't believe you can blame a schizophrenic for their actions while ill anymore than an epileptic for having seizure.
He knows he's ill now - he knows he needs to be on meds to control his illness. If the doctors monitoring him for the rest of his life believe the meds are working then I think he should get a chance to start over.
That being said - while he's medicated and lucid he should know that if he ever goes off his meds for any reason that his freedom is gone. To stop taking his meds would be a choice made by him while cognizant and aware and that should never be excused.
And that is my problem with this guy going unsupervised. My great uncle was schizophrenic. He was very aware of his condition. He stopped taking his meds because he didn't think he needed them anymore. Once this guy is unsupervised, any guarantee of that is out the window.
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