What ISIS Really Wants

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

I think the jist of what the author is getting at is thata ISIS interprets every word of the Koran as fact and carries things out as so. Kind of like if some crazy form of Christianity uprised and tried to implement the Old Testament word for word.

ISIS is not interpreting every word of the Koran as fact. They are picking and choosing which words to interpret as fact in order to justify their psychopathic cult. But yes, you could easily do a similar thing with any of the other major religious texts.

I think this is really the point of the article. Dealing with ISIS is like dealing with David Koresh and his followers, who chose death over reason. That's the reason why nothing has been successful so far. ISIS doesn't want anything besides what they have, which is a brutal middle ages-like society. Their goal isn't to negotiate a peaceful settlement, it's to drag everyone around them down to their level.

[Mike F]

Good article generally, but to the extent that it's criticizing the West for failing to stamp out ISIS early, this bit tells me the author's out of touch with reality:

If we had identified the Islamic State’s intentions early, and realized that the vacuum in Syria and Iraq would give it ample space to carry them out, we might, at a minimum, have pushed Iraq to harden its border with Syria and preemptively make deals with its Sunnis.

The then-Malaki gov't in Iraq resisted any concessions to the Sunnis until ISIS was on the doorstep of Baghdad. They weren't going to bend because one of many insurgent groups based mainly in Syria was making scary threats.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by blankall

...But yes, you could easily do a similar thing with any of the other major religious texts...

Hypothetically - true; practically – not. No other religion in the XXI century has been used so successfully by leaders to inspire millions of people to do so.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Hypothetically - true; practically – not. No other religion in the XXI century has been used so successfully by leaders to inspire millions of people to do so.

That has more to do with history than the text. Christianity has simply been generally wealthier and more educated hence harder to motivate to violence

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Hypothetically - true; practically – not. No other religion in the XXI century has been used so successfully by leaders to inspire millions of people to do so.

No other religion has oil barons pumping billions of dollars into purposely spreading a backwards version of their religion.

[Titan]

My take from the article was that the development and appointing of a caliphate is actually a very real weakness of the movement. It creates obligations that people are identifying with but it also creates a very real target for opposing forces to focus on assassinating. Also, the requirement to hold land should make addressing them much easier as they cannot simply scatter to the hills a la Al Qaeda but must control territory, thus making it easier to engage them as a "nation state" which the modern military is much better at.

The other take away for me is that there is no negotiating with them. Their ideology is based on the concept of them losing all but 5000 of their followers. They will execute anyone them deem unworthy and will show no mercy. That enable demonizing them easier and thus engaging them more palatable.

They are very scary. A part of me wonders if targeting their recruiters and sending the Seals after the caliphate is not the way to go.

As to whether they represent all of Islam, they clearly don't as they are willing to throw others "under the bus" that don't live up to their own beliefs. That is pretty scary.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

That has more to do with history than the text. Christianity has simply been generally wealthier and more educated hence harder to motivate to violence

Meh, so?.. We can also remember how brutally violent were Aztecs, Incas and Mayans. Again, this is XXI century with all of the information age, media and technology bring with it. Yet, we have one religion that continues to be used to inspire millions to die over a religious belief alone.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Meh, so?.. We can also remember how brutally violent were Aztecs, Incas and Mayans. Again, this is XXI century with all of the information age, media and technology bring with it. Yet, we have one religion that continues to be used to inspire millions to die over a religious belief alone.

I'm not making excuses. Just giving context. The solution isn't and will never be removal of religion (no matter how beneficial it would be in other areas of life). These kinds if struggles always arise when poverty and lack of education arise. Though eradication of religion would make long strides to eliminating the powder kegs that spark these things

[CliffFletcher]

Parts of the Muslim world are vulnerable to fundamentalism because the modern world is regarded as much worse than the idealized memories of centuries past. It's a reaction to failure and humiliation.

If the United States broke into pieces and most of those pieces degenerated into impoverished, 3rd rate powers, I'm betting we'd see some pretty freaky fundamentalist Christian sects take root.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

... I'm betting we'd see some pretty freaky fundamentalist Christian sects take root.

I'm betting you'd lose this bet. $390M of South Americans are predominantly Christian and very poor. Favelas in Sao-Paolo and Rio have despicable living conditions where tens of millions people live in extreme poverty and humiliating second-class status. We do not see freaky fundamentalist sects taking root nor, more importantly, spiritual control over there despite a very relaxed and libertarian political power regime that would be an easy target.

[Vulcan]

From what I know about religions Islam is the only one that it's founder chose to go to war. I'm not trying to criticize him compared to other religious founders, he was in a difficult situation, but it has given his followers a precedent in how to spread their religion.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I'm betting you'd lose this bet. $390M of South Americans are predominantly Christian and very poor. Favelas in Sao-Paolo and Rio have despicable living conditions where tens of millions people live in extreme poverty and humiliating second-class status. We do not see freaky fundamentalist sects taking root nor, more importantly, spiritual control over there despite a very relaxed and libertarian political power regime that would be an easy target.

That's very true, but if you take a place like Iraq and take into consideration that it had a 8 year war against Iran in the 80's, 2 devastating wars against the U.S., sanctions, rule by one dictator for a long time, etc then all the death and destruction is bound to unleash some madness.

[afc wimbledon]

Islam is no more or less brutal than Christianity or Judaism theologically, in fact most of Islam's 'laws' are just the Old Testament, stoning women, slavery, death to apostates, there all part of 'our' liturgy.

Where Sunni Islam has really differed is the combination of most of the Middle East being a utter rural backwater for centuries, and so having no impetus to change, develop or educate, then suddenly, due to oil, becoming rapidly rich and powerful, this led to a reverse of Christian development, Europe's power slowly moved north away from Rome as France England and Holland developed industries based on new technologies and so Catholicism lost its political importance.

In Islam Ottoman turkey was its center up until the First World War, it started to modernize and pulled Islam towards the future much like Christianity, but the sudden rise of Saudi Arabia as an oil state, at the same time as the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire gave control/influence of the religion to a incredibly rural unsophisticated people, because 'we' ran the oil industry there was no impetus for Saudis to educate or modernize, we just gave them money and they pretty much carried on living in tents herding goats.

It's also important to realize that Sunni Islam is wholly different than Ishmalli or Shia, or even, within Sunni, the suffists.
They may all share the Koran but the way they interpret it is wholly different, Ishmalis are utterly peacefull, although ironically grew out of a sect of assassins, sort of Islamic ninjas.

[killer_carlson]

I think one of the under-stated pieces from the article is that ISIS has forcefully implemented Sharia law through violence.

ISIS is what a Sharia law society would look like.

And it's bad news.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If the United States broke into pieces and most of those pieces degenerated into impoverished, 3rd rate powers, I'm betting we'd see some pretty freaky fundamentalist Christian sects take root.

You mean like the Tea Party?

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I think one of the under-stated pieces from the article is that ISIS has forcefully implemented Sharia law through violence.

ISIS is what a Sharia law society would look like.

And it's bad news.

Dubai follows Sharia Law. As Does Doha. And several other countries around the world that are nothing like ISIS.

Sharia is a constitution more than it is a set of laws. The laws are built on interpretations of that constitution, not always word for word applications.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Dubai follows Sharia Law. As Does Doha. And several other countries around the world that are nothing like ISIS.

Sharia is a constitution more than it is a set of laws. The laws are built on interpretations of that constitution, not always word for word applications.

Yeah. You only get ten years in prison for being gay in Dubai; not chucked off a building.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Dubai follows Sharia Law. As Does Doha. And several other countries around the world that are nothing like ISIS.

Sharia is a constitution more than it is a set of laws. The laws are built on interpretations of that constitution, not always word for word applications.

Good point. You are right.

ISIS is demonstrating what Sharia law will enable fanatics to do. And they've done it through violence including stamping out dissent.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Yeah. You only get ten years in prison for being gay in Dubai; not chucked off a building.

Lol. I know several gay people in Dubai, who are openly gay. They have never had an issue.

Feel free to google gay hate crimes for North America since 2010, or even longer ago. You will find a plethora of horrible crimes perpetrated on innocent people in the wonderful US of A and Canada. Where Sharia Law does not exist.

They just aren't as sensationalized in North American media because we like to think our culture is progressive, unlike those backwards Muslims!

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Lol. I know several gay people in Dubai, who are openly gay. They have never had an issue.

Right. So all the gay people who have been arrested, "tried", and imprisoned/deported, for being gay in Dubai don't count because you have had a personal experience? Gotcha.

Feel free to google gay hate crimes for North America since 2010, or even longer ago. You will find a plethora of horrible crimes perpetrated on innocent people in the wonderful US of A and Canada. Where Sharia Law does not exist.

Right. And the key there being, it's a crime here! And in 81 countries around the world, most of them bound by Sharia law, it's a crime not to abuse gay/lesbian people. Can you see the difference? If I beat up and rape a gay person in Dubai, what happens? Ask this kid...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/01/wo...anted=all&_r=0

They just aren't as sensationalized in North American media because we like to think our culture is progressive, unlike those backwards Muslims!

No. The reason you here about it here at all is because it is an abhorent outlier of what is considered the norm in our culture. You can't kill people for being gay here, but you can, in fact are permitted by law to do so, in Dubai.

This is why I question the 99.99% of muslims are not extremists, sort of statements. 81 countries prove otherwise.