Ukraine Presidential Crackdown Violence. Russia Invades Ukraine

[Aeneas]

Originally Posted by Thor

So 2 Russian bombers came VERY close to Iceland, the closest in history for us. During the cold war we had many submarines popping up in our waters over the years, but this is a first for us.

The NATO guy they talked to on the radio said this is the most aggressive stance he's seen since the cold war days.

2 Russian bombers also did a fly by of the UK coast.

[FlameOn]

So Ukraine is now formally requesting UN peacekeepers to enforce the ceasefire signed by both the Russian and pro-Russian "rebels"/Russian troops. Russia responds that Ukraine has violated the ceasefire by even suggesting peacekeepers be deployed.

A plea from Ukraine for international peacekeepers to enforce a shattered ceasefire in the east ran into strident opposition Thursday from pro-Russian rebels and Moscow.

They argued the appeal, made late Wednesday by Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, sought to "destroy" the UN-backed truce agreed under European mediation last week in the Belarus capital Minsk.

Russia's UN ambassador, Vitaly Churkin, quickly responded by saying Poroshenko's move "raises suspicions that he wants to destroy the Minsk accords".

Ukraine and the West accuse Russia of cynically manipulating diplomacy while covertly deploying soldiers and military backing to the pro-Moscow separatists. The Kremlin denies the allegation.

http://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-troo...085153425.html

Not sure why these news organizations still keep giving the Russians a benefit of a doubt in news articles by referring to the deployment of Russian troops and equipment as 'allegations' when we've already seen more than enough evidence of this. Call a spade a spade. Also how do Russian people even keep a straight face when reading about clear contradictions in their government's actions and stated behaviour.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

So Ukraine is now formally requesting UN peacekeepers to enforce the ceasefire signed by both the Russian and pro-Russian "rebels"/Russian troops. Russia responds that Ukraine has violated the ceasefire by even suggesting peacekeepers be deployed.



http://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-troo...085153425.html

Not sure why these news organizations still keep giving the Russians a benefit of a doubt in news articles by referring to the deployment of Russian troops and equipment as 'allegations' when we've already seen more than enough evidence of this. Call a spade a spade. Also how do Russian people even keep a straight face when reading about clear contradictions in their government's actions and stated behaviour.

UN Peacekeepers...................that should resolve everything.........

[NuclearPizzaMan]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

UN Peacekeepers...................that should resolve everything.........

It really can't hurt in this case. Backed by Russia, the rebels could pick this up again in a month, and Ukraine can't really up the ante enough to stop them without risking Russian intervention. A force of EU or international peacekeepers could force them to back off.

[CaptainCrunch]

Or end up with a lot of dead peacekeepers.

The day and age of sending in snappy looking soldiers with nice Blue Berets in shiny white jeeps who bravely stand between warring sides is over.

In order for "peacekeeping" to work there has to be a strong "Or else" that you're prepared to use.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Also how do Russian people even keep a straight face when reading about clear contradictions in their government's actions and stated behaviour.

Lies, propaganda and cheating are integral parts of war. As long, as the man supports the war - and many in Russia seems to so do, he has no problem with Putin playing dirty to win it.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Lies, propaganda and cheating are integral parts of war. As long, as the man supports the war - and many in Russia seems to so do, he has no problem with Putin playing dirty to win it.

So we can all now agree that Putin started a war with Ukraine?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

So we can all now agree that Putin started a war with Ukraine?

Started? No. Russia was fine with pro-Russian yet legally elected president running the country. However corrupt you may think he was I would argue that Ukraine was in way better shape under him than it is now and that toppling an allegedly corrupted leader via coup is not the way to go in democratic world. So, to me it was a stable situation and the balance was broken by Ukraine, probably with a lot of western support.

That being said, Russia is definitely at war now and there's no doubt that our troops are heavily involved in the whole situation and the Crimea was annexed (something I never.supported, but could swallow, and Putin should have really stopped there)

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Started? No. Russia was fine with pro-Russian yet legally elected president running the country. However corrupt you may think he was I would argue that Ukraine was in way better shape under him than it is now and that toppling an allegedly corrupted leader via coup is not the way to go in democratic world. So, to me it was a stable situation and the balance was broken by Ukraine, probably with a lot of western support.

What business of Russia's is it who the leader of the Ukraine is or how they were put there though? The backwards logic one must believe in to think that the Ukrainian people owe it to Russia to put a pro-russian president boggles my mind.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Robo

Does anyone have a guess what russias end game is here? I'm pretty baffled at their tactics.

They are trying to build a Greater Russia.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Or end up with a lot of dead peacekeepers.

The day and age of sending in snappy looking soldiers with nice Blue Berets in shiny white jeeps who bravely stand between warring sides is over.

In order for "peacekeeping" to work there has to be a strong "Or else" that you're prepared to use.

I think some neutral observers imbedded on each side would probably help keep both sides honest and help avoid the tit-for-tat retributions that are too common in these conflicts, but I agree that a full peace keeping force would be ineffective and really only helps Russia. Ukrainians have a right to fight back and retake their country.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Dan02

What business of Russia's is it who the leader of the Ukraine is or how they were put there though? The backwards logic one must believe in to think that the Ukrainian people owe it to Russia to put a pro-russian president boggles my mind.

Can't have a precedent of corrupt leaders being removed from power. Imagine if the Russian people start considering that option, the whole kleptocracy would be in danger!

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

They are trying to build a Greater Russia.



I think some neutral observers imbedded on each side would probably help keep both sides honest and help avoid the tit-for-tat retributions that are too common in these conflicts, but I agree that a full peace keeping force would be ineffective and really only helps Russia. Ukrainians have a right to fight back and retake their country.

I don't think that you really need to have observers in this day and age. All that happens is they observe, I can do that via satellite and over flights.

I would prefer reforming the UN, so if peacekeepers enter a battlefield, they are more along the lines of peace enforcers. With actual Military officers calling the shots instead of some shiny headed suit wearing jerk in New York.

Personally you give the UN a handful of Trident 2 missiles, and a few armored battalions and a message that this conflict stops now or we kill the next side that fires a shot.

Maybe throw in a few black helicopters and a robotic cloning facility.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I think some neutral observers imbedded on each side would probably help keep both sides honest and help avoid the tit-for-tat retributions that are too common in these conflicts, but I agree that a full peace keeping force would be ineffective and really only helps Russia. Ukrainians have a right to fight back and retake their country.

Sorry FA, but this is a bad idea.

As CC pointed out there is no need anymore for on the ground observers. If there is one thing the Yugo Wars taught us, it is that belligerents don't give a flying #### if there are observers or peacekeepers.

If they want to kill people they will kill people.

Futhermore, IIRC, the UN won't put in peacekeepers unless both sides agree to them. I don't see that happening.

The only way it might work is if it was a Chapter 7 mission, and I can't see any country willing to throw troops into that kind of meat grinder.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Sorry FA, but this is a bad idea.

As CC pointed out there is no need anymore for on the ground observers. If there is one thing the Yugo Wars taught us, it is that belligerents don't give a flying #### if there are observers or peacekeepers.

If they want to kill people they will kill people.

Futhermore, IIRC, the UN won't put in peacekeepers unless both sides agree to them. I don't see that happening.

The only way it might work is if it was a Chapter 7 mission, and I can't see any country willing to throw troops into that kind of meat grinder.

I'd like to add in that the UN has observers in the middle east and I think that Hezbollah set up their rocket launching equipment around UN posts so that Israel couldn't counterfire without killing UN troops.

Observers are a liability in this day and age, and a strategic asset at worst.

add on to that with a Chapter 7 mission, it would get veto'd at the security council level anyways. China has been working with the Russians in terms of establishing an energy partnership and would take about 2 seconds to veto.

[Dan02]

The UN is so horribly broken and useless it hurts.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Dan02

The UN is so horribly broken and useless it hurts.

I am not sure it was ever useful.....

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Dan02

The UN is so horribly broken and useless it hurts.

As long as national interest continues trumping collective stability, any system that is established will be horribly broken or useless.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

As long as national interest continues trumping collective stability, any system that is established will be horribly broken or useless.

You are never going to have it any other way. A government is elected and governs based on the best interests of its citizens.

You are never going to have a global government because countries with larger populations are going to be key voting blocks and trump the interests of developed nations who have smaller populations and greater wealth and things that need to be protected.

The idea of a global government is an impossibility.

[Yasa]

What's a chapter 7 mission?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Yasa

What's a chapter 7 mission?

In short

Chapter 6 = Peacekeeping

Chapter 7 = Peacemaking

http://glossary.usip.org/resource/chapters-6-and-7

Sections of the United Nations Charter that deal most directly with dispute resolution. Chapter 6, “Pacific Settlement of Disputes,” stipulates that parties to a dispute should use peaceful methods of resolving disputes, such as negotiation and mediation. It authorizes the Security Council to issue recommendations, but they are generally considered advisory and not binding. Chapter 7, “Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace, and Acts of Aggression,” authorizes more forceful methods such as economic coercion and severance of diplomatic relations. Should those measures prove inadequate, the Security Council may then “take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security.” The informal term Chapter 6 and a Half refers to traditional UN peacekeeping operations that fall between the two. See also Peace enforcement, Peacekeeping, and Peacemaking.