ISIS militants attack and take over Iraqi northern city of Mosul

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

If you let them settle in, their idea of governing is to hideously murder anyone that doesn't share their twisted vision of an Islamic State. If you let them establish it becomes a beacon of success for every loser looking for a cause, and if you let them settle in they will continue to spread their hate filled ideology and recruit and export trained terrorists.

Personally the only reason why you call off the air strikes and let them establish their hideous form of government and their slave state is so that you can contain them and then nuke them to ashes, and before anyone jumps on me, that's not the solution, and I don't advocate nuking anyone.

I advocate using special forces to kill everyone flying that flag and leading those people. I advocate for assassinations of their leadership. I advocate finding their sources of funding and killing those. Air strikes won't knock ISIS off balance, it will harden their resolve. Sure it looks good in Western papers and we can preach that we're doing something. But to ISIS its a weak response and an encouraging sign that eventually the West will accept their poison and their rule, and that will be the ultimate sign of victory for them and the ultimate recruiting poster.

That's all well and good, but the alternatives are not great either. The Sunnis were also killed and horribly treated when the Maliki government was in power,and we all know what Assad does. The main problem is that it's decades of dictatorial regimes that have left people battered and everyone wants revenge on someone. I like your idea of killing the leadership as it hands them a prestige blow, but to go after anyone flying that flag there, I'm not so sure that it makes things better.

[PIMking]

Just start massacring them.... ISIS needs to be killed yesterday.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I don't buy that these recruits are psychopaths, at least not to begin with. Most of them come off as pretty ordinary youths, rebellious, but easily led while looking for some meaning in their lives. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any sympathy for them once they've crossed that line but to brand the recruits as psychopaths, is a bit much.

Yes because they read Inspire magazine which calls for murdering people, watch videos with beheadings and Crucifixions, and hear press releases about how its ok to marry a 9 year old girls and how if you fight for them you get a free sex slave thrown in for good measure, and they think, well maybe I can go over there and do some good.

They appeal directly to the most far over people in terms of personal values, the only personal responsibility that they're looking for is their personal responsibilities for servicing their dark little fantasies and they hide behind the conept that fighting a religious crusade justifies it and god will reward them for their actions.

The psycho's that would normally be thinking, everyone hates me and I'm going to go shoot up a school has changes as this has become an easier outlet.

I will give credit to the recruiters in the western world. They know where to find these broken people, and they know how to sell them by using a twisted ideology.

That's why its so crucial that we find the recruiters over here and the financiers that are over here and get them out of our society.

Its also crucial that we don't let any of these lunatics back over our borders unless we can throw them into a deep dark place and use them to gather information.

[Red Ice Player]

I can sort of understand the motivation of an Iraqi or Syrian born ISIS member, born into a hell hole of an existence and taught to hate before learning to walk. People like that have virtually no chance, and even then most won't become killers. But I have zero sympathy with recruits from Western democracies. They know exactly what ISIS represents and are all too eager to travel to a region they don't belong to and to take up a fight that isn't theirs and to kill and rape using pretty much the most twisted and evil ideology yet conceived by man. They are beyond redemption and have forfeited any rights or freedoms they were so lucky to be born with. Along with the leaders of this fake Caliphate, it is the Western recruits I most want to see dead. They'll be in the front lines when the main ground war starts, the stupid morons that they are.
I was absolutely enraged when I heard about those murdered Egyptian Coptics. It's been bothering me all day. They were just dirt poor boys trying to find work. That this atrocity will help ISIS recruiting efforts is all anyone needs to know when forming an opinion about Western born recruits. A zero tolerance policy must be adopted by all Western nations in regards to native born terrorists.

[nik-]

Great article in The Atlantic

There is a temptation to rehearse this observation—that jihadists are modern secular people, with modern political concerns, wearing medieval religious disguise—and make it fit the Islamic State. In fact, much of what the group does looks nonsensical except in light of a sincere, carefully considered commitment to returning civilization to a seventh-century legal environment, and ultimately to bringing about the apocalypse.

The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls, in its press and pronouncements, and on its billboards, license plates, stationery, and coins, “the Prophetic methodology,” which means following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail. Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/...-wants/384980/

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I get what you're saying, Captain, but the problem I think is that their recruiting seems to be going up since the strikes started. Even today with Egypt striking them and in the process killing some civilians, they will use that as fuel.

Then you stomp on the anthill a few more times for good measure, pour the right amount of gasoline on, and light those ####s up.

[flames_fan_down_under]

After reading the Atlantic article I am convinced that ISIS will be their own undoing. They will continue to try to establish their caliphate and hyper-fundamentalist muslims will of course be obligated to join them to establish this caliphate and will eventually be defeated by their lack of progress and low morale will inevitably enter their collective psyche. Their territorial advances are already dwindling and eventually their caliphate will be a place of death and poverty. The coalition just needs to make sure they continue to contain them.

Properly contained, the Islamic State is likely to be its own undoing. No country is its ally, and its ideology ensures that this will remain the case. The land it controls, while expansive, is mostly uninhabited and poor. As it stagnates or slowly shrinks, its claim that it is the engine of God’s will and the agent of apocalypse will weaken, and fewer believers will arrive. And as more reports of misery within it leak out, radical Islamist movements elsewhere will be discredited: No one has tried harder to implement strict Sharia by violence. This is what it looks like.

[blankall]

I agree with the above. A large part of how ISIS has been supporting themselves is through looting banks and resources and a heavy initial influx of fighters. Those resources will eventually all burn out.

[Flashpoint]

Since 87% of the US's oil now comes from outside the Middle East (thanks Alberta!) I'd like to pay 13% more at the pump and have no further American presence in the region.

3rd parties don't solve civil wars. Most Jihadis are created when Western powers bomb wedding parties by accident, or kill somebody's jackass brother. Iraq was invaded for no reason, and the Iraqis know it. They're pissed at the US, but even more so at each other.

Stop propping up oppressive regimes like Saudi Arabia, allow the region to redraw its own maps, and who knows... You might start seeing peace break out. Extreme groups like ISIS don't tend to last long once people figure out they can't actually govern.

In any case - oil used to be the compelling argument for staying in the region. It's far less so today. Time to pack it up.

[FlameOn]

The US unveils massive plan to retake Mosul.

U.S. forces are amassing and training 20,000 to 25,000 Iraqi and Kurdish forces in preparation for a spring attack to retake Mosul, Iraq from an estimated 1,000 to 2,000 fighters of the Islamic State, or ISIS.

In an extraordinary briefing for reporters, an official from U.S. Central Command, or CENTCOM, which oversees the military coalition fight against ISIS in Iraq, detailed the size and composition of a force that the U.S. hopes will be ready for the offensive within as early as five weeks.

The coalition attack force would consist of five Iraqi brigades that the official said must first go through a U.S. training course, in addition to three Peshmerga brigades that would attack Mosul “from the north,” a newly formed “Mosul fighting force” of mostly Mosul police officers, and special operations forces of Iraq’s Counter Terrorism Service – all of whom are under the advise and assist leadership of U.S. forces in Iraq.

http://www.defenseone.com/threats/20...-state/105669/

[Coach]

Seems weird to just come right out and say that, no?

"Better look out ISIS, we're coming in exactly 5 weeks. We hope this knowledge doesn't help you be more prepared for the attack than you otherwise would be, which is, again, in 5 weeks."

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Seems weird to just come right out and say that, no?

"Better look out ISIS, we're coming in exactly 5 weeks. We hope this knowledge doesn't help you be more prepared for the attack than you otherwise would be, which is, again, in 5 weeks."

Not sure what the US is thinking announcing this early. Either the US thinks ISIS doesn't have the manpower to stop this no matter what ISIS does, or they are confident enough in their abilities and manpower that they are trying to draw enough ISIS fighters to the area to crush them in one fell swoop.

Another thing is maybe this is just misinformation by the US forces to push ISIS out of position and attack them somewhere else?

[FlamesAddiction]

The U.S. training a paramilitary force in combat? Certainly there is no potential blowback from such an action.

They better make sure it doesn't fail, otherwise it will greatly strengthen ISIS's position.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Seems weird to just come right out and say that, no?

"Better look out ISIS, we're coming in exactly 5 weeks. We hope this knowledge doesn't help you be more prepared for the attack than you otherwise would be, which is, again, in 5 weeks."

This is one of three things to me

1) This is a intentional misdirection, similar to Britain setting up false rally points prior to the D-Day invasion by putting false vehicles and training soldiers under the command of a for real heroic face slapping general like Patton to convince the Germans that the D-Day invasion was going to happen somewhere else.

You basically as so well stated force the enemy to move its forces away from where you want to go and then stab them in the back from another direction.

2) Psychological warfare. Its equivalent to you getting into the bar fight and before the fight starts your opponent tells you that he's going to kick you in the face and there's nothing you can do about it, then he outright kicks you in the face and you doubt your abilities and it puts you off balance.

3) this has become a political exercise where the US can basically say look we're doing something and then watch the home polling numbers rise because they've flexed their muscles with very little potential cost. Look at all we're doing in fighting ISIL.

I'm cynically leaning towards three by the way.

In terms of the briefing its really not giving much information. I'm assuming that there will be an increased demand for allied air strike capabilities, I would also bet that there will be an increased demand for allied helicopter airlift capability for this to work.

I don't know what the makeup is in terms of the different attacking units. But if we're talking infantry on infantry warfare against an enemy with 5 weeks to dig in then the Iraqi and other units are going to use. 30,000 isn't going to be enough. If the estimates are correct that ISIL have 200,000 troops in place, then they are on the right side of the forces calculation in terms of repulsing an attacking force. And I get that ISIL is fighting on multiple different forces, but there's a reason why the Russians believed in a 3 to 1 force advantage because the Russians are the all time champs in terms of fighting in an urban environment, and they understand that an urban setting is a 3x force multiplier for a defending force.

The only way to counter this is to bring in massive air strike and artillary assets to pound defensive positions, have at least one mobile armored formation on call to dig enemies out. And on top of that have your special forces attacking from different directions to create chaos and incertainty.

If they basically zerg rush (bad gaming term, sorry) we're going to see a lot of dead Iraqi's and others and a ISIS terrorist group with a high moral level.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Seems weird to just come right out and say that, no?

"Better look out ISIS, we're coming in exactly 5 weeks. We hope this knowledge doesn't help you be more prepared for the attack than you otherwise would be, which is, again, in 5 weeks."

Ugh great... Mosul is going to be Fallujah 2.0.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Ugh great... Mosul is going to be Fallujah 2.0.

Or Bay of Pigs times 1,000.


Or maybe they will pull it off.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The U.S. training a paramilitary force in combat? Certainly there is no potential blowback from such an action.

They better make sure it doesn't fail, otherwise it will greatly strengthen ISIS's position.

To be fair, the US is only giving a few weeks of training. Theoretically, the force is already trained.

It's supposedly a force of 25000 attacking a force of 2000. The US, I assume, will be giving air support and attacking supply lines. Even if they don't win, ISIS is going to have to devout a huge portion of their resources to this. This'll be a large blow either way.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

This is one of three things to me

1) This is a intentional misdirection, similar to Britain setting up false rally points prior to the D-Day invasion by putting false vehicles and training soldiers under the command of a for real heroic face slapping general like Patton to convince the Germans that the D-Day invasion was going to happen somewhere else.

You basically as so well stated force the enemy to move its forces away from where you want to go and then stab them in the back from another direction.

2) Psychological warfare. Its equivalent to you getting into the bar fight and before the fight starts your opponent tells you that he's going to kick you in the face and there's nothing you can do about it, then he outright kicks you in the face and you doubt your abilities and it puts you off balance.

3) this has become a political exercise where the US can basically say look we're doing something and then watch the home polling numbers rise because they've flexed their muscles with very little potential cost. Look at all we're doing in fighting ISIL.

I'm cynically leaning towards three by the way.

In terms of the briefing its really not giving much information. I'm assuming that there will be an increased demand for allied air strike capabilities, I would also bet that there will be an increased demand for allied helicopter airlift capability for this to work.

I don't know what the makeup is in terms of the different attacking units. But if we're talking infantry on infantry warfare against an enemy with 5 weeks to dig in then the Iraqi and other units are going to use. 30,000 isn't going to be enough. If the estimates are correct that ISIL have 200,000 troops in place, then they are on the right side of the forces calculation in terms of repulsing an attacking force. And I get that ISIL is fighting on multiple different forces, but there's a reason why the Russians believed in a 3 to 1 force advantage because the Russians are the all time champs in terms of fighting in an urban environment, and they understand that an urban setting is a 3x force multiplier for a defending force.

The only way to counter this is to bring in massive air strike and artillary assets to pound defensive positions, have at least one mobile armored formation on call to dig enemies out. And on top of that have your special forces attacking from different directions to create chaos and incertainty.

If they basically zerg rush (bad gaming term, sorry) we're going to see a lot of dead Iraqi's and others and a ISIS terrorist group with a high moral level.

Can't it be all three?

3) is happening right now, even if 2) is also happening. BUT, you can go ahead and run with 2), and still have 1) happen. Kind of like telling you "non-allies" what you are planning on doing at a certain time, so they can get busy at the same time. Iran, Jordan, Assad, the other Syrian rebels, all preparing for using an American offensive at the same time, by using the media to co-ordinate? Could that even work?

[schteve_d]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

2) Psychological warfare. Its equivalent to you getting into the bar fight and before the fight starts your opponent tells you that he's going to kick you in the face and there's nothing you can do about it, then he outright kicks you in the face and you doubt your abilities and it puts you off balance.

Or like Ronda Rousey telling you she's going to finish you by arm bar.

[Burke Salad]

Perhaps it's to get out as many of the innocent as possible, then flatten that city?