Feb 17 Practice - Hiller starts against Wild

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Ortio goes to a one way contract next year. He's coming up IMO.

Ramo is a UFA and Hiller will have a year left IIRC. Management clearly thinks it will be Hiller/Ortio.

Hartley clearly regards Hiller as the number one. So the question is, do you get something for the backup or risk losing him for nothing, just to protect the games he may play from here on out, which IMO will be minimal.

The return for Ramo would be minimal, and easily worth the insurance he provides heading into the playoffs.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Dan02

I don't think he's let in 26+ bad ones this year. Unless our definition of bad goals is vastly different.

Hiller has been one of those goalies who seems to let in weak goals and stop ones that should have gone in. 26??? maybe that's pushing it, but I'd say he's let in at least 15 and some have cost us points like that 4-3 goal he let in against Chicago in November. Goalies let in bad goals was the point of my post, Ramo letting them in is no different than Hiller letting them in.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

Im not sure how you blame Ramo for the 2 of the three last night...

Where did I? In fact I never did, and realistically I don't even blame him for the backhand softy because the guys in front of him were too lazy.

That doesn't change the fact that Ramo's a good trade asset. Presumably.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Where did I? In fact I never did, and realistically I don't even blame him for the backhand softy because the guys in front of him were too lazy.

That doesn't change the fact that Ramo's a good trade asset. Presumably.

But the question here is this: is his greatest value to this team in the potential return from a trade (likely not better than a 3rd round pick), or in the depth and insurance he provides heading into the playoffs?

I'll take the latter, thanks.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Where did I? In fact I never did, and realistically I don't even blame him for the backhand softy because the guys in front of him were too lazy.

That doesn't change the fact that Ramo's a good trade asset. Presumably.

I wasn't meaning to suggest that you implied that about Ramo, a lot of CP has, but I can see where my post does suggest that so I'm sorry. My argument is just that the value of Ramo to this team right now (the remainder of this season) is greater than the value of his return in a trade.

[Max Cow Disease]

The other funny thing about the comments on Ramo is that many were stripping Hiller nude, lathering him up with BBQ sauce, and floating him down the piranha infested creek during the couple points this season in which he looked shaky as well. Goaltending's very much a "what have you done for me in the last 10 minutes?" kind of position for fans.

I'd be surprised if he gets traded. Particularly from the standpoint of this season, both guys have had off moments and both have been able to lean on one another and contribute to what has, overall, been a solid slate of goaltending for the Flames this season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

I wasn't meaning to suggest that you implied that about Ramo, a lot of CP has, but I can see where my post does suggest that so I'm sorry. My argument is just that the value of Ramo to this team right now (the remainder of this season) is greater than the value of his return in a trade.

Ramo's value as a backup (which IMO he is right now) is only worth more than his trade value if Ortio can't provide equal goaltending for three games he has left.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Ramo's value as a backup (which IMO he is right now) is only worth more than his trade value if Ortio can't provide equal goaltending for three games he has left.

Again you cant plan for injuries and if Hiller got injured in or leading up to the playoffs I would take a Ramo/Ortio combo over an Ortio Theisen/Carr combo. It just makes sense.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Ramo's value as a backup (which IMO he is right now) is only worth more than his trade value if Ortio can't provide equal goaltending for three games he has left.

It is unfortunately not that simple, and I don't believe that the answer even to this question is altogether straightforward. As I posed above: as good as Ortio looked in his five game stretch this season, Ramo has looked arguably just as good in a stretch of six games. Are we sure that Ortio will maintain that same level of play down the stretch? I'm not convinced.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

Again you cant plan for injuries and if Hiller got injured in or leading up to the playoffs I would take a Ramo/Ortio combo over an Ortio Theisen/Carr combo. It just makes sense.

Maybe we should get two more goalies in case Ramo, Hiller and Ortio all get injured. Since we can't plan for injuries.

Both goalies in the AHL are pretty capable IMO.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It is unfortunately not that simple, and I don't believe that the answer even to this question is altogether straightforward. As I posed above: as good as Ortio looked in his five game stretch this season, Ramo has looked arguably just as good in a stretch of six games. Are we sure that Ortio will maintain that same level of play down the stretch? I'm not convinced.

This.

Remember when Irving had a pretty good call-up??

Im not suggesting Ortio will turn into Irving, I think we have done a supreme job developing Ortio, I think it would be foolish to potentially throw him into the fire now. Ramo needs to stay until the end of this year which is when we can slowly adjust Ortio into the rigors of an NHL season next year. We haven't rushed Ortio once since drafting him, why do it now?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It is unfortunately not that simple, and I don't believe that the answer even to this question is altogether straightforward. As I posed above: as good as Ortio looked in his five game stretch this season, Ramo has looked arguably just as good in a stretch of six games. Are we sure that Ortio will maintain that same level of play down the stretch? I'm not convinced.

As a backup, neither is going to get a stretch of games.

I was a big Ramo fan going into this season, and thought he'd proven to be a capable starter in the second half last year. This year Hiller has been superior IMO.

But more than that, this is the second year of a rebuild. Ramo isn't being re-signed for next year. And not only has Ortio played well here, he's an AHL all-star. It's pretty clear to me that he's ready for backup at least.

The 5 or so games leading to the POs and the maybe 1 he plays in the POs if they get in don't make his insurance value worth it to me. Especially since I think Ortio is as good an insurance policy.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Maybe we should get two more goalies in case Ramo, Hiller and Ortio all get injured. Since we can't plan for injuries.

Both goalies in the AHL are pretty capable IMO.

Haha. Right.

Thiesen has 0 NHL experience
Carr has 0 NHL experience
Ortio has limited NHL experience
Ramo has Some NHL experience
Hiller has tons of NHL experience

Which combo do you want down the stretch as we fight for our first playoff birth in 5 years???

I cant believe this is even an argument at this point.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Then what?

The Flames exchange the possibility of a late round pick (probably third or fourth round) for a backup goalie heading into the playoffs. This is a great trade off as far as I am concerned, even in the light of the fact that Ramo is likely lost to free agency this summer.

This is the kind of planning that got Calgary to drafting 5th overall.

This year is an affectation. Holding onto guys who weren't or who made themselves not part of your plan going forward to satisfy what are, in the common parlance of this board 'gravy' games, is wrong headed. It's the same kind of thinking that saw Calgary hold onto guys like Tim Jackman in favour of 'the run'.

Ramo has actual value as a capable backup. He won't be in Calgary next year barring Calgary trading Hiller. Calgary is not even a lock for the playoffs themselves. When polled, of the 241 CP respondents, only 11 thought Calgary would be a playoff team this year.

Dubnyk was turned into a 3rd rounder. They signed him in the off season. That's found money in the draft. You package a couple of those found pieces of money and you buy into the 2nd round, etc The market is pretty much set and I don't think it's as soft as some do. If Ramo nets you an extra 3rd or 4th round pick, why not take that instead of sacrificing a few games just to hold onto him?

Sure, Hiller could get injured and then you're in a situation of Ortio/Jabroni, but again, this is a gravy season. It's not the end of the world. It's year 1.75 of the rebuild. Turning over roster players for futures when you aren't contending is just part of the process that a successful franchise should be following, and despite the success of this season, Calgary is still not a successful enough franchise that it can afford to take a year or two off from turning expiring contracts into extra bullets in the draft gun.

Last year, Berra was turned into Hunter Smith.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

...Ramo isn't being re-signed for next year. And not only has Ortio played well here, he's an AHL all-star. It's pretty clear to me that he's ready for backup at least.

I would agree. But I also think it is great for Ortio to continue to log big minutes down the stretch, and to take his team on a run in the AHL playoffs.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The 5 or so games leading to the POs and the maybe 1 he plays in the POs if they get in don't make his insurance value worth it to me. Especially since I think Ortio is as good an insurance policy.

I take a longer term view of Ortio. In the end, I don't expect you or others to change you opinion about what you think to be the best course of action. However, I do hope we can all agree that if Ramo is still with the Flames after the TD, that this is not to be classified as a wasted asset or wasted opportunity.

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by Gaudfather

I like that Colborne is at an optional practice today - shows some serious commitment.

He hasn't been playing as well or as much over the last 5 games or so. Good on him to put in the extra work to make up for it.

[sureLoss]

per Russo

Vanek was missing from the Wild's practice. Yeo expects him to play tomorrow however the Wild are considering calling up another forward.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

...Turning over roster players for futures when you aren't contending is just part of the process that a successful franchise should be following, and despite the success of this season, Calgary is still not a successful enough franchise that it can afford to take a year or two off from turning expiring contracts into extra bullets in the draft gun.

Sure, but not every expiring contract does—nor even should it—become a "silver bullet." Like I said, I get what you are saying, and I agree in principle. But what I take fundamental issue with is the urgency to trade Ramo. It IS NOT a critical decision, and for you to compare it to previous seasons' inactivity is laughable.

I won't be surprised to see the Flames make a deal in the next couple of weeks, even in exchange for futures. But they are much, MUCH stronger up front than in goal, and dealing from a position of strength, by weighing all things equally (the value of a potential playoff push is pragmatically just as valuable as another third round pick), the Flames are better off swapping out forwards than their backup goalie.

[heep223]

Does anyone have any insight into what's going on with Colborne? He is seemingly being pushed down the lineup, getting less icetime, skating with the extras on optional days.

Is it a function of the good play of others, or poor play by him I wonder? Because the latter, I don't see. I thought he was playing well of late.

EDIT I see above there has been some discussion so I will go through the thread

[FBI]

Originally Posted by heep223

Does anyone have any insight into what's going on with Colborne? He is seemingly being pushed down the lineup, getting less icetime, skating with the extras on optional days.

Is it a function of the good play of others, or poor play by him I wonder? Because the latter, I don't see. I thought he was playing well of late.

EDIT I see above there has been some discussion so I will go through the thread

Not about Colborne lol