Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[peter12]

Originally Posted by spiteface

That's exactly it.

Listen, Israel knows where every spec of water is in Lebanon. Don't tell me this operation wasn't pre-planned. They nailed Lebanon at the height of their touristic season, and brought the whole country to rubble. If they want to, they can go in without any problems, recover their two soldiers and dismantle Hizbollah in a matter of days. But they're intentions go beyond that, and by giving themselves a carte blanche they have now reached a Lebanese death toll of 230. Explain this to me, how does one compare 230 Lebanese deaths to 20 Israeli deaths? Why - because the life of an Israeli is worth literally that much more than any arab national.

Defend herself? This is how a country defends itself... well then call me stupid for I thought defending oneself would include eliminating harm from an oppressor. But what harm to the people in south of Lebanon pose? How about the people in the Bekaa Valley? or the people of southern Beirut? How about the bridges they have demolished? How about the relief buses they blew up on their way from the Emirates? How about the ports and the airports and the highways to help these ppl escape death? And Israel said they gave fair warning? WHo teh **** is living a double standard.

My two cents and im sick of Israel. They will get theirs.

Wow... just wow.
As for the cute water comment, for the price of one week's fighting in the Gaza, the Israelis could build 5 water desalination plants.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Azure

I thought you said they were unguided, and they weren't aiming them at civilain targets?

Give me a break. They're unguided in terms of a lack of laser guidance, no TV guidance, no heat seeking missiles. Anyone with any common sense knows what unguided means.

Originally Posted by Azure

Far as I see it, they're taking action against those that harbour and support Heballah, which includes the Lebanon government.

Just wondering. Are you all for just eliminating Lebanon from the map? Because that's really what it seems like.

Originally Posted by Azure

What resentment? Israel GAVE up Gaza in order for peace to have a chance to work? Did it? They made a peace agreement with Lebanon in order to peace to work, did it?

The resentment from the 1982 attacks, when Hezbollah was born. The youths of this generation knew civil war, but they did not know first-hand what Israel did to them before. Now they do.

Whether or not they made a peace agreement is moot when you yourself have thousands of Lebanese prisoners, whether they have a charge or not.

[Lucky boy]

Originally Posted by Azure

Maybe you should quit with your ridiculous claims then....

But this is a quote for something you said earlier

Originally Posted by Azure

But I have a feeling the US, Syria and Iran, plus a bunch of other countries will get involved as well.

You need to stop over reacting whenever someone disagrees with Isreal. You keep complaining about anti semitisim, yet your hate for Arabs is quite blatant.

[Cube Inmate]

Re: "civilized":

In this context, it refers to a society that fights its wars for the purpose of keeping its civilians safe, using orthodox methods such as wearing uniforms, reporting to a democratically elected government, and having the ultimate goal of cessasion of hostilities, not conquest. You will (of course) dispute the assertion that America's current wars are intended to improve the security of its citizens. Ostensibly, that IS the purpose though, and the "hostilities" were very clearly started by certain parties across the ocean.

It specifically does NOT refer to a society that fights as a proxy for a hostile nation while stationed on another nation's soil, in an undemocratic society, reporting to no one, and using unmarked bases in civilian neighborhoods to attempt to hide from counter-attack. It does not refer to a group whose stated purpose is the elimination of an internationally recognized nation.

Does it sound like those definitions are based on "zionism?"

Re: "eradicating the extremists"

Yes....get rid of all of them on both sides, but obviously the definition of "extreme" depends on the observer. I consider it extreme to want to wipe Israel off the map, when it's clear that it's not going anywhere. Whether it should have been created or not in the first place is a different story...but that's somewhat irrelevant now, 60 years later. I consider it extreme to lob missiles across borders at non-military targets simply to terrorize the population. On the other hand, I consider it "heavy-handed" to bomb in civilian areas because the bad guys are there, but at least there is a legitimate military purpose in this.

You apparently consider Bush and his policies to be extreme. I'll assume we're referring mostly to foreign policy, as that's what the discussion is about. In that case, I have to wonder what you thought of his policies before 9/11? Before a group of whackos, acting outside of the rules of combat, attacked the country you're living in and killed 3000 innocent people. I would consider that attack a little extreme, and the Bush et. al response to be rather reserved in fact. Of course, this is likely irrelevant as well since the WTC was brought down by a Bush administration conspiracy in your looney tunes world.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Give me a break. They're unguided in terms of a lack of laser guidance, no TV guidance, no heat seeking missiles. Anyone with any common sense knows what unguided means.

They're unguided in terms of what happens after thier fired, but they can still be fairly accurate when aiming at a Civilian population. Firing between map points isn't that difficult, its the same theory as firing a artillary shell. Its simple math.

Originally Posted by Regorium

Just wondering. Are you all for just eliminating Lebanon from the map? Because that's really what it seems like.

Thats a fairly accusatory statement, I certainly don't want Lebanon wiped off of the map, and I don't think anyone on this board has said anything to that point. However the destruction of Hamas, and the security of Israel's towns and civillians has to be recognized as part of the equation, and since Lebanon has been either unwilling or unable to control these factions that are actually in thier government, Israel is doing it. Now if you reverse that statement and I ask you if you want to see Israel wiped off of the map, I would be saying the same thing . . . but I certainly don't believe that. You have to look at the historical problems in the region when it comes to Israel's security.

The war in 1948 was a war of aggression launched against Israel by unified Arab forces

The 1956 was was launched by Israel after they received intelligence that they were going to be attacked again.

The 1967 (6 day war) was launched after attacks by Palestine forces, combined with actions from Egypt

The 1973 Yom Kipper War was launched against Israel by forces from Egypt and Syria with assistance from other Arab Nations

The 1982 was that you speak of was very similar to todays war, and was stated by Palestine raids from Bases in Lebanon.

If you look at the history you wonder why Israel lashes back, they feel that nobody is going to protect them from a hostile region that seems to be intent on destroying thier country. Time after time these groups have been untrustworthy which fuels Israel's paranoa, and forces the reaction that you've seen today.

Originally Posted by Regorium

The resentment from the 1982 attacks, when Hezbollah was born. The youths of this generation knew civil war, but they did not know first-hand what Israel did to them before. Now they do.

Don't make these groups out to be hero's or even soldiers. They're not, and they do more harm to thier own people then they do to Israel. What Israel has done to them, what about what they've done to themselves? In nearly every instance, Israel has had to bear the brunt of the attacks, or terrorist assaults and then have been condemned for fighting back.

Originally Posted by Regorium

Whether or not they made a peace agreement is moot when you yourself have thousands of Lebanese prisoners, whether they have a charge or not.

Why should Israel have to negotiate with Hezbollah, and why should they take the first steps. Everytime Israel has made a deal in the region its been thrown back in thier face. What makes this any different? Whats to guarantee the peace process if chances are that some of these realeased prisoners are back lighting the fuses or launching rockets the next day. Until groups like the Hezbollah, and Hamas recognize Israels right to survive and thier right to security, and put down thier arms there is no reason for Israel to do anything but exterminate them.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

You need to stop over reacting whenever someone disagrees with Isreal. You keep complaining about anti semitisim, yet your hate for Arabs is quite blatant.

You know to return some civility to this board, and to defend Azure, I haven't seen any real pronouncement of a hatred for Arabs, if I missed something in what is becoming a very long string I apologize, but I'm not seeing it.

[Lucky boy]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You know to return some civility to this board, and to defend Azure, I haven't seen any real pronouncement of a hatred for Arabs, if I missed something in what is becoming a very long string I apologize, but I'm not seeing it.

He keeps shooting out insults at anyone who suggests Isreal is at fault for anything. He always brings up the anti semitism issue, I probably went over board with my claim, but most of his posts seem like they try to anger the apposing poster.

I noticed CaptainCrunch that you have stated several times that Isreal has had most of their peace offerings thrown back in their face. Obviously Isreal wants peace more than the Palestinians. Isreal would prefer the status quo, where as the Palestinians feel like they are cheated. Peace can succeed in the Middle East and a good example is the peace treaty between Egypt and Isreal.

In order for a peace treaty to work, almost always both sides have to be of equal power. Egypt and Isreal at the time were able to form a treaty because they were both close to equal strength. But now you have one group who is clearly much stronger than other, it makes it harder to form peace. Sometimes the weaker nation doesn't have the capabilities to meet their end of the bargain( ie controlling their extremists).

All that aside, this war needs to be stopped. The destruction of Lebanon isn't going to destroy the terrorists.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by spiteface

That's exactly it.

Listen, Israel knows where every spec of water is in Lebanon. Don't tell me this operation wasn't pre-planned. They nailed Lebanon at the height of their touristic season, and brought the whole country to rubble. If they want to, they can go in without any problems, recover their two soldiers and dismantle Hizbollah in a matter of days. But they're intentions go beyond that, and by giving themselves a carte blanche they have now reached a Lebanese death toll of 230. Explain this to me, how does one compare 230 Lebanese deaths to 20 Israeli deaths? Why - because the life of an Israeli is worth literally that much more than any arab national.

Defend herself? This is how a country defends itself... well then call me stupid for I thought defending oneself would include eliminating harm from an oppressor. But what harm to the people in south of Lebanon pose? How about the people in the Bekaa Valley? or the people of southern Beirut? How about the bridges they have demolished? How about the relief buses they blew up on their way from the Emirates? How about the ports and the airports and the highways to help these ppl escape death? And Israel said they gave fair warning? WHo teh **** is living a double standard.

My two cents and im sick of Israel. They will get theirs.

When people are shooting rockets into ones country, and they take out those rocket sites, THAT is called defence. Israel is just suppose to sit back and let them kidnapp their soldiars and have rockets rain down on them.

RIGHT

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

He keeps shooting out insults at anyone who suggests Isreal is at fault for anything. He always brings up the anti semitism issue, I probably went over board with my claim, but most of his posts seem like they try to anger the apposing poster.

I noticed CaptainCrunch that you have stated several times that Isreal has had most of their peace offerings thrown back in their face. Obviously Isreal wants peace more than the Palestinians. Isreal would prefer the status quo, where as the Palestinians feel like they are cheated. Peace can succeed in the Middle East and a good example is the peace treaty between Egypt and Isreal.

In order for a peace treaty to work, almost always both sides have to be of equal power. Egypt and Isreal at the time were able to form a treaty because they were both close to equal strength. But now you have one group who is clearly much stronger than other, it makes it harder to form peace. Sometimes the weaker nation doesn't have the capabilities to meet their end of the bargain( ie controlling their extremists).

All that aside, this war needs to be stopped. The destruction of Lebanon isn't going to destroy the terrorists.

Peace cannot be achieved in the middle east while any terrorist group is operating there. You cannot compare a treaty between Egypt and Israel as proof that peace is achievable. Egypt has much less at stake than the Palistinians.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Your right, the destruction of Lebanon will not stop the terrorists. But unless the Lebanesse army takes control of the area and stops bowing toward the pressure from Hezzbola (mainly Syra and Iran) Israel has little choice but to try and remove the terrorists themselves.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

He keeps shooting out insults at anyone who suggests Isreal is at fault for anything. He always brings up the anti semitism issue, I probably went over board with my claim, but most of his posts seem like they try to anger the apposing poster.

I noticed CaptainCrunch that you have stated several times that Isreal has had most of their peace offerings thrown back in their face. Obviously Isreal wants peace more than the Palestinians. Isreal would prefer the status quo, where as the Palestinians feel like they are cheated. Peace can succeed in the Middle East and a good example is the peace treaty between Egypt and Isreal.

In order for a peace treaty to work, almost always both sides have to be of equal power. Egypt and Isreal at the time were able to form a treaty because they were both close to equal strength. But now you have one group who is clearly much stronger than other, it makes it harder to form peace. Sometimes the weaker nation doesn't have the capabilities to meet their end of the bargain( ie controlling their extremists).

All that aside, this war needs to be stopped. The destruction of Lebanon isn't going to destroy the terrorists.

Peace Treaties can only really exist between nation states that are willing to put aside key positions in order to achieve a mutually beneficial relationship.

Hezbollah is not a nation state and thier actions can not and are not controlled by an accountable government. They and Hamas have also stated in thier charters that they want nothing less then the extermination of Israel, so as long as these groups are in existance there is no chance that there is going to be any type of lasting peace for example between Lebanon and Israel, because a peace treaty between these two countries does not serve the end goals that Hamas and Hezbollah wish to see.

The only way that I could see a cease fire is if Lebanon actively went out of thier way to destroy Hamas in place with what military they have no matter what the cause. the problem with this is that it would cause a civil war without end in Lebanon between the Hezbollah and thier *****e supporters and the rest of the nation.

Israel will and cannot accept nothing less then a buffer zone and the destruction of Hezbollah assets in that buffer zone, its unlikely that they would trust any international bodies pledges on a ceasefire as they will not trust the outside world as far as thier security goes.

I think we need to settle in on what will be a long conflict, unless Lebanon and Israel can reach an agreement on the disarming of the Hezbollah.

Its even grimer in Palestine as the Hamas has formed the government there, and there will never be any common ground between these two groups.

[Azure]

I did say that, and it is recognized as being so around much of the globe. It was YOU that said the Americans claimed to be the best, where I sarcastically said "they claimed to be the best at everything", which they do. Not many people agree with them, but that doesn't stop Americans from thinking they are indeed the greatest civilization ever to have existed and still the world leader in everything.

I sacastically asked the question, okay?

The US has a very capable Special Forces group, probably one that is known as being as capable as Britain, Israel or even Canada's.

Point being, I don't think its our position to dicuss that Israeli Special Forces are better then American Special Forces.

Insulting them? Where the hell did I insult them? Holy over-reaction. I said the Israeli's claimed to have the best special forces units in the world (acknowledged by several sources as being pretty accurate), so I don't see that as being an insult to anyone.

To me, as someone who KNOWS people in what we're talking about, I would find your comments very insulting.

I know that from what I read and who I talk to. And how do you know any different? Because YOU do the exact same thing, so save me your bull****. You know people, just like I do.

Difference being, I don't go around sprouting crap about something I know NOTHING about. Just like you, without any experiance know NOTHING about what goes on in the black ops.

They likely are in Lebanon. Someone has to paint the targets for them lazer guided bombs the Israelis are dropping. If they are trying to recover the soldiers, they are doing it in an awfully unoxthodox fashion.

So you think they aren't looking for the soldiers? Maybe they have been shipped to Iran.

Blah blah blah. Again, you are doing the exact same thing, so quit your whining. You sound like a little bitch that just had her favorite doll taken away from her.

Try being more civilized and you might get half your point across.

[Azure]

Give me a break. They're unguided in terms of a lack of laser guidance, no TV guidance, no heat seeking missiles. Anyone with any common sense knows what unguided means.

Maybe you should have acknowledged that in the first place, eh? Without making it seem like Hezballah shoots the rockets in a relative direction, HOPING they will hit an Israeli city and kill innocent people.

Just wondering. Are you all for just eliminating Lebanon from the map? Because that's really what it seems like.

To edit and clarify myself, yes I do believe that a government that harbours and supports terrorists should be taken out, but I really feel that Lebanon has its hands tied in this situation. I don't think they have the military/police power to take out Hezballah, so its almost a necessity that Israel does it.

The resentment from the 1982 attacks, when Hezbollah was born. The youths of this generation knew civil war, but they did not know first-hand what Israel did to them before. Now they do.

Are you trying to make me feel sympathetic for their cause?

Hezballah is a terrorist organization, maybe you should acknowledge that too.

Whether or not they made a peace agreement is moot when you yourself have thousands of Lebanese prisoners, whether they have a charge or not.

I thought under the Geneva convention you had the right to hold a POW until the end of said conflict.

So whats your point?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

But this is a quote for something you said earlier

You need to stop over reacting whenever someone disagrees with Isreal. You keep complaining about anti semitisim, yet your hate for Arabs is quite blatant.

What does that have too do with your CT's about the conflict?

A conflict you yourself said you know "nothing about."

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Hezbollah is not a nation state and thier actions can not and are not controlled by an accountable government.

Yet the expectation is that certain countries in the region are fully expected by Israel to control Hezbollah? Yes, a very interesting conundrum that seems to slip by more than a few around here. It's kind of like invading Iraq to get to al Qaeda. It is not effective and only increases the recruiting effort.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Yet the expectation is that certain countries in the region are fully expected by Israel to control Hezbollah? Yes, a very interesting conundrum that seems to slip by more than a few around here. It's kind of like invading Iraq to get to al Qaeda. It is not effective and only increases the recruiting effort.

Hezballah has been elected into the Lebanon government though, thats where I find reason to blame Lebanon for letting this become worse then it should be.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

I sacastically asked the question, okay?

The US has a very capable Special Forces group, probably one that is known as being as capable as Britain, Israel or even Canada's.

Point being, I don't think its our position to dicuss that Israeli Special Forces are better then American Special Forces.

What a joke! Now we can't mention who has the best forces, as outlined by different publications, because it bruises your twisted little sensibilities? Get over yourself.

To me, as someone who KNOWS people in what we're talking about, I would find your comments very insulting.

I find your whole condesending attitude insulting, so that makes us even. And as some who also KNOWS people in what we're talking about, I can make any comment I want.

Difference being, I don't go around sprouting crap about something I know NOTHING about. Just like you, without any experiance know NOTHING about what goes on in the black ops.

On the contrary. This thread, and any other one that breathes about the militay, proves you're more than willing to sping a load about subjects you know nothing about.

So you think they aren't looking for the soldiers? Maybe they have been shipped to Iran.

WTF are you suggesting? You just finished rambling on about people talking **** about stuff they don't know anything about and then you pull this one out of your ass? Unbelievable!

Try being more civilized and you might get half your point across.

Try being more civil in your own right, and less of a whiny bitch, and you might get taken seriously.

[Azure]

Fine Lanny, act like an idiot if you want too.

I for one am sick and tired of reading any thread you are involved in, as your comments are ALWAYS insulting towards whoever you're talking too.

I have been civilized in every single post towards you, but no, you still gotta act like an arrogant twit that thinks he knows EVERYTHING.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by Azure

Anti-semitism at its best.

You have no clue what is happening, do you?

Dont even start with the name-calling game. I just picked up my friends from the airport who fled the country in disbelief. YOU have no room to speak unless you've been there and felt what demolition they were undergoing. You speak from a safe persepective from your little house in Calgary or Canada or whatever.

This is what is happening: The US is the bully in town. Israel is its little rich friend. The arab countries are the ones that don't take **** from the bullies. The USA wants to get into Syria/Iran, and this was perfect timing for Israel to set things up.

Who suffers... Lebanon. The country coming out of a massive civil war and its aftermath. How the hell do ppl let Israel get away with what it is doing? Isn't that terrorism? Tell me who in their right mind can go in and literally bring down an entire nation in a matter of 5 days?

You mean to tell me, that the all might Israel can't take out a minor group such as Hizbollah? You my friend are biased towards the Israeli cause and you think that anything they do is justified. Hizbollah is a terrorist organization? And you're not another robot to the system eh... Label everything like you're used to hearing from the news don't ya. HIzbollah has freed Lebanon's south in 2000 and continues to battel for the Shebaa Farms. Now tell me this, who's the terrorist? 250 Dead to 20 Dead? No questions asked. Why do you always mask everything and justify it as do the media outlets. Is it safe from your perspective or are you a coward to face the truth.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by spiteface

Dont even start with the name-calling game. .

Just asking...what name were you called exactly?