Evander Kane tracksuit saga

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Locke

Come on. His agent already said that his shoulder has 'had an issue' since halfway through last season so he clearly didnt 'need' it. And he certainly didnt need it immediately.

He didn't necessarily need it immediately but he needed it. So why would he continue playing for a team he's done with when he needs the surgery eventually when he can just have it now and be 100% for the next team he plays for?

[GioforPM]

I would have thought there needs to at least be a good case that it's necessary, for him to avoid a suspension by the team for leaving to have surgery. What does the CBA say?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Hackey

He didn't necessarily need it immediately but he needed it. So why would he continue playing for a team he's done with when he needs the surgery eventually when he can just have it now and be 100% for the next team he plays for?

If it was an issue halfway through last season then why didnt he get it done either as soon as the Jets were eliminated or during the off-season?

Why right now? Why is it immediately necessary when hes been playing games and suiting up and his team is pushing for the playoffs for the first time?

It seems like an awfully convenient coincidence that all of a sudden it becomes critically necessary.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I would have thought there needs to at least be a good case that it's necessary, for him to avoid a suspension by the team for leaving to have surgery. What does the CBA say?

No way the NHLPA lets that fly. If the team docs say he doesn't need surgery yet, they'll get a second opinion from a doctor more friendly to Kane who says it is necessary now and that'll be the end of that.

As it stands now the last I heard was the jets doc was the one doing the surgery so I think the jets are on board with it.

[united]

Saw an interesting idea on Twitter.

A team who is tanking now and rebuilding for the future deals one of their deadline assets for Kane (and whatever other pieces are needed to make it work). His cost will never be lower.

Trading their veteran for an injured player helps their tank job for the rest of this season, and next year they get a fresh and rested 23-year-old who still has a high ceiling and will undoubtedly be motivated. If the team thinks this ordeal will serve as a wake-up call and/or they have a veteran player they think can take Kane under his wing and mentor him and help him integrate with the new team, that's not a bad idea actually.

They also wouldn't have to get involved in the bidding war that will no doubt happen for him if they waited until the offseason when contenders would be interested in him once again.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

At this exact moment? Yup. It's fairly plain to see

Claude Noel doesn't agree with you. He rejects most of the narrative on this string about Kane being a "locker room cancer". He says Kane has played through a lot of injuries and he has not quit on the team:

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/noel-kane-ha...-team-1.201294

His team-mates don't agree with you either:

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/hnidy-teamma...-back-1.201275

Edit: Sorry the second link doesn't bear out that point although the title says so.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Agree that the leaders of a team will probably have a chat with him.

Not sure how hanging a track suit in a dressing room is a "quiet" sign of that though, that is a way you agitate somebody and start things off on the wrong foot.

You have to remember these are all alpha males here. When a player with a reputation comes into the room is important the leader shows who is boss and makes that obvious to everyone in the room that he has made a statement for all to see. It's kind of like when a rookie fighter wants to make a name for himself. He's going to take on the alpha male in the league and try to earn that early respect. Don't forget these guys are schooled in hockey, and not much else. Thinking they are going to behave as two business people would is unrealistic. These guys have been raised in this environment and this is what they know. And if you think this stuff still doesn't go on, because of the big money, you're crazy. The big money has just made the egos that much bigger. Hazing is just an example, but the behaviors are documented and out there.

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/photos/...tiation-072612

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...in-nhl-history

Some of the stuff that goes on is good hearted and meant to be funny. But some of it is down right mean and is designed to send a message. You conform or you will be singled out.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Locke

Come on. His agent already said that his shoulder has 'had an issue' since halfway through last season so he clearly didnt 'need' it. And he certainly didnt need it immediately.

If his shoulder has ‘had an issue’, then he needs the surgery. Surgeons don't cut into healthy tissue for kicks, or even for cash.

As for the timing, I already went into that. If a person needs surgery, the only reason to delay it (other than finances or fear of the knife, which don't apply in this case) is because something else has a higher priority. For pro athletes in team sports, the team is usually that higher priority, so they wait till the off season if they can. Well, in this case the team seems to have made it fairly clear that it doesn't want Kane around; which removes the only reason he had to wait before getting the surgery.

If you say (as Street Pharmacist does) that he is getting the surgery purely to spite the team, then you are saying that the surgery is not medically required at all. But if that were the case, no reputable surgeon would perform it.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by New Era

Some of the stuff that goes on is good hearted and meant to be funny. But some of it is down right mean and is designed to send a message. You conform or you will be singled out.

Right. By the standards of nearly anyone who is not a professional athlete, it's a culture of bullying.

EDIT (to avoid a triple post):

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Claude Noel doesn't agree with you. He rejects most of the narrative on this string about Kane being a "locker room cancer". He says Kane has played through a lot of injuries and he has not quit on the team:

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/noel-kane-ha...-team-1.201294

His team-mates don't agree with you either:

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/hnidy-teamma...-back-1.201275

I appreciate the links, and the following is in no way a criticism of you. Just a general observation that I've wanted to make before.

DAMMIT, I hate seeing links to audio clips as evidence of what somebody said. The first clip is over 15 minutes long, and there is no way to skim through it and find the relevant bit. I wish there was a transcript!

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by New Era

You have to remember these are all alpha males here. When a player with a reputation comes into the room is important the leader shows who is boss and makes that obvious to everyone in the room that he has made a statement for all to see. It's kind of like when a rookie fighter wants to make a name for himself. He's going to take on the alpha male in the league and try to earn that early respect. Don't forget these guys are schooled in hockey, and not much else. Thinking they are going to behave as two business people would is unrealistic. These guys have been raised in this environment and this is what they know. And if you think this stuff still doesn't go on, because of the big money, you're crazy. The big money has just made the egos that much bigger. Hazing is just an example, but the behaviors are documented and out there.

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/photos/...tiation-072612

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...in-nhl-history

Some of the stuff that goes on is good hearted and meant to be funny. But some of it is down right mean and is designed to send a message. You conform or you will be singled out.

Making rookies pay for some dinner or dress up funny is completely different then singling out a guy who was just traded to your team, using something that was clearly a trigger for the guy in the past.

Also look at this quote from the article you posted, from one of the most heralded leaders in the history of the NHL- Joe Sakic. Guess he didn't have the balls to be a pro-athlete either.

Quebec Nordiques rookie Joe Sakic, who looks like a skinhead since his "initiation," offers a ray of hope for the future. Sakic is on record as saying: "Next year, I'm not going to be doing anything." That's the only way it will stop—if the rookies of this season have the sense not to take it out on the rookies of next season.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Hackey

He didn't necessarily need it immediately but he needed it. So why would he continue playing for a team he's done with when he needs the surgery eventually when he can just have it now and be 100% for the next team he plays for?

This is kind of exactly what the people you are arguing with are saying. Everyone can see the logic in his scenario. Why put yourself at further risk for a team you don't want to play for? Makes perfect sense.

It's also s***ty to do so when the current team, who is paying you the ridiculous dough you like to flaunt, is in the middle of a playoff push and shows a "me-first" mentality on a part of the player.

All the events leading up to this has lead to his decision to do it now rather than in a few months, thereby removing the teams (supposed) best player from their roster for the most important stretch of any season since the team moved there.

No doubt the Jets played a part in all of this. But he's walking away from his team at a crucial time. And regardless of how talented he is, this is a game that requires the work of all players, and other teams will recognize that this scenario (among the many others from before) shows he is not a team player and is likely the root of the problem. Not the Jets management or the rest of the team, however they mishandled it themselves.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Right. By the standards of nearly anyone who is not a professional athlete, it's a culture of bullying.

Completely agree with you, but it's tradition. Kind of like the code. Lots of that BS should change as well, but it doesn't because its been around for as long as the game.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

If his shoulder has ‘had an issue’, then he needs the surgery. Surgeons don't cut into healthy tissue for kicks, or even for cash.

As for the timing, I already went into that. If a person needs surgery, the only reason to delay it (other than finances or fear of the knife, which don't apply in this case) is because something else has a higher priority. For pro athletes in team sports, the team is usually that higher priority, so they wait till the off season if they can. Well, in this case the team seems to have made it fairly clear that it doesn't want Kane around; which removes the only reason he had to wait before getting the surgery.

If you say (as Street Pharmacist does) that he is getting the surgery purely to spite the team, then you are saying that the surgery is not medically required at all. But if that were the case, no reputable surgeon would perform it.

Where did I say he's getting surgery purely out of spite?

I specifically said he's getting it done now out of spite.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

If his shoulder has ‘had an issue’, then he needs the surgery. Surgeons don't cut into healthy tissue for kicks, or even for cash.

As for the timing, I already went into that. If a person needs surgery, the only reason to delay it (other than finances or fear of the knife, which don't apply in this case) is because something else has a higher priority. For pro athletes in team sports, the team is usually that higher priority, so they wait till the off season if they can. Well, in this case the team seems to have made it fairly clear that it doesn't want Kane around; which removes the only reason he had to wait before getting the surgery.

If you say (as Street Pharmacist does) that he is getting the surgery purely to spite the team, then you are saying that the surgery is not medically required at all. But if that were the case, no reputable surgeon would perform it.

Thats not true at all. No one is saying that the surgery isnt needed at all and no one is accusing surgeons of cutting into healthy tissue for kicks or money.

What I am saying is that the timing of this is ridiculous and that the 'immediate necessity' of the surgery is dubious at best.

I wholeheartedly agree with your assertion that he may have delayed the surgery for the 'benefit of the team' or whatever and when that benefit expired he chose differently. All well and fine. But I can name 2 other opportunities as outlined by his agent where a professional athlete and his medical team could have resolved this at the expense of no time lost. Most would categorize those opportunities as the responsible decision.

Those options were left untaken and this much more inconvenient option has been suddenly elected. Doesnt make a lot of sense, does it? For something thats lingered and suddenly become immediately critical?

Why today? Hes been playing, and playing well recently, he was late but prepared to play against Vancouver but no, now, all of a sudden after a game off he needs immediate season-ending shoulder surgery.

'Need' is a strong word for something thats been left on the backburner for what seems to be about a year.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Making rookies pay for some dinner or dress up funny is completely different then singling out a guy who was just traded to your team, using something that was clearly a trigger for the guy in the past.

Also look at this quote from the article you posted, from one of the most heralded leaders in the history of the NHL- Joe Sakic. Guess he didn't have the balls to be a pro-athlete either.

Sakic is one guy. On the other end of the spectrum is Messier, who would beat the #### out of you if you didn't get with the program. It still happens and messages are sent in subtle ways. You know, like throwing a guy's tracksuit into the shower.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Where did I say he's getting surgery purely out of spite?

I said this:

Or do you think he's going under the knife purely to spite the Jets?

And you replied:

At this exact moment? Yup. It's fairly plain to see

Which is to say, you agreed that he is getting the surgery purely to spite the Jets. Which means, not at all because there is a medical reason for it. If you do something purely for reason A, then you are not doing it for reason B.

[Coach]

Yes! It's at semantics now!

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Which is to say, you agreed that he is getting the surgery purely to spite the Jets. Which means, not at all because there is a medical reason for it. If you do something purely for reason A, then you are not doing it for reason B.

Okay, so it isnt pure spite, its diluted spite.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Locke

I wholeheartedly agree with your assertion that he may have delayed the surgery for the 'benefit of the team' or whatever and when that benefit expired he chose differently. All well and fine.

OK, it sound like we agree on that point.

But I can name 2 other opportunities as outlined by his agent where a professional athlete and his medical team could have resolved this at the expense of no time lost. Most would categorize those opportunities as the responsible decision.

I'll agree with that also. However, that would suppose that the professional athlete in question has more intelligence than a turnip and the ability to control his own impulses. Kane's previous behaviour, especially on social media, kind of makes me doubt whether those two conditions apply in this case.

What I seem to be saying is that Kane's actions are predictable and understandable, given the kind of person he appears to be; not that they are right or prudent. He has definitely fouled up. But he doesn't seem to be the only person who contributed to the foul-up.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yes! It's at semantics now!

It has actually been at semantics for a little while now...









(yes, that is joke, albeit a bad one)