Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Oh I know the act is not alone. I understand this is a really complicated matter dating back to when Israel was born as a state. Who's been MORE wrong in the past 50 years? That's debatable. But in my opinion, Israel has done more wrong to the surrounding countries.

Israel has been more successful, yes. They have been a target, and responded when provoked. Even after this, they have attempted to trade land for peace with no success. What more should they do? Move to another area of the world? That is not going to happen, and Hezbollah and Hamas seem to not want anything but this.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Oh I know the act is not alone. I understand this is a really complicated matter dating back to when Israel was born as a state. Who's been MORE wrong in the past 50 years? That's debatable. But in my opinion, Israel has done more wrong to the surrounding countries.

How?
Israel is the only democratic and multicultural country in the Middle East. Maybe if Syria, Iran et al. would do more to be like Israel instead of trying to recreate the Holocaust they wouldn't get such negative feedback from the Israelis.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Well, what of the thousands of Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners that Israel has captured from Lebanese/Palestinian soil? Can they be considered an "initial attack"? How far back do we go? How about the massacre of Arabs by the Israeli's when they claimed the chunk of land that the UN said was theirs back in 1948?

Way to notch up vitrol!

Yes, many terrorists have been apprehended in the PA territories and southern Lebanon. Most either have been through or are awaiting trial. Are these POWs? I guess they could be since Lebanon and Israel have 'officially' been in a state of war since 1948.

For every 'massacre' one way there is another 'massacre' going the other way. Fact - the majority of livable land in pre-67 Israel was PURCHASED from absentee landlords by Jewish pioneers pre-1948. Fact - The UN enacted the Partition Plan in 1948, the Arab Nations could have agreed to it, they chose to go to war and lost.

Israel is trying to engage in a surrender process. A "conditional ceasefire" if you will. It's obviously one sided. What happened to the Lebanese demands? Where's the exchange of soldiers?

There are no Lebanese demands. Get your players straight. Israel wants the missles fired from Lebanon to stop and their soldiers returned. Hezbolah wants millions of Jew treading water in the Mediterrenian Sea. Syria wants those Jews at the bottom of the sea. Iran wants a nuclear bomb so they can have the glory of destroying Israel. Lebanon wants to be free of Syrian influence and all the missles to stop.

It CAN be argued that they are fighting for their people. The people of Palestine elected Hamas to do this fighting for them. Their cause is to drive out the people that STOLE their land 50 years ago. Because of this, I think you're right - There will NEVER be peace, until every last Lebanese and Palestinian has been wiped out.

According to a lot of pro-Hamas pundits, the Palestinians elected Hamas to fix a corrupt government system, not fight a war for them.

Once again - Israel did not steal any land! They purchased land, were alotted land and yes, conquered land through five defensive wars.

No one has to be wiped out. Israel was happy to trade land of even the most uneasy on peace treaties. Hams & Hezbolah have no interest in negitiating peace.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by calculoso

My comparison was for how embedded they are in the community.

The Hells Angells have not bombed anybody. They are not military.

Hezbollah has bombs and send them. They are military. They also embed themselves in communities, much like the Hells Angels do.

Get the comparison now?

No. Your comparison still sucks ass. If you're looking for a more valid comparison, look at the militia movement in the United States and in Canada. That would be a more realistic comparison. Or look at the terrorist organizations in both countries. Police action is what is needed, not dropping bombs from planes. This should be a Ruby Ridge standoff, NOT an event for planes and laser guided bombs. This is a complete over-reaction by the Israelis. They like to claim they have the best special forces in the world, and the most of any army, well how about using them instead of doing what they are doing? This is the time for a snatch and grab operation, not bombing. If the Israelis are sporting a johnson to get their soldiers back, WTF are they doing bombing locations where Hezbollah could be holed up? Doesn't seem to me like that is a reasonable response to a kidnapping at all. Israel is not acting rationally. If they are, they don't care about the soldiers and are doing nothing but trying to start a wider conflict in the region. The misinformation that Iranians damaged their frigate is proof of that IMO.

[Azure]

They're mostly hitting open fields and such. One in every 20 hits a city. They basically aim at the general direction of a city, knowing the trajectory and such and try to adjust for wind. Very primitive weapons.

I thought you said they were unguided, and they weren't aiming them at civilain targets?

Are they really taking action against a terrorist network or are they taking action against the whole nation? I think that's one of the key points of contention. As I posted just a bit earlier, the quote was that they've started to hit the Lebanese army bases, even though they've stayed out of the fighting. Their heavy-handed approach seems much more like an invasion and a siege more than just to root the terrorists out (and secure the safe return of their soldiers).

Far as I see it, they're taking action against those that harbour and support Heballah, which includes the Lebanon government.

A 30 mile buffer zone won't do the job. Neither will a 100 mile buffer. The resentment already caused by this act will never stop the fighting, no matter what the UN says. Really...I just see Lebanon getting wiped off the map to end the conflict, ditto with Palestine.

What resentment? Israel GAVE up Gaza in order for peace to have a chance to work? Did it? They made a peace agreement with Lebanon in order to peace to work, did it?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

No. Your comparison still sucks ass. If you're looking for a more valid comparison, look at the militia movement in the United States and in Canada. That would be a more realistic comparison. Or look at the terrorist organizations in both countries.

Hells Angels, Terrorist Organizations, Militia Movements... whatever. The Hells Angels was just what came to mind closest. They are all similarly embedded in communities and not easily targeted or extracted, which is what my point was.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Police action is what is needed, not dropping bombs from planes. This should be a Ruby Ridge standoff, NOT an event for planes and laser guided bombs. This is a complete over-reaction by the Israelis. They like to claim they have the best special forces in the world, and the most of any army, well how about using them instead of doing what they are doing? This is the time for a snatch and grab operation, not bombing.

I'd agree that Police action would be the best course of action, if this was in the same country. Usually, Police cannot just go into another country and arrest people. While I agree that this would be a better action, I don't see it as something that Lebanon would do.

Last I heard, Hezbollah was demanding that their 200-ish prisoners be released in trade for the Israeli soldier(s). Would this not indicate that a snatch and grab operation has already occurred, to little (if any) success?

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

The misinformation that Iranians damaged their frigate is proof of that IMO.

Unless you have proof that the Iranians are not involved, you're just guessing and choosing to believe one side over the other, much like the rest of us.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by calculoso

I'd agree that Police action would be the best course of action, if this was in the same country. Usually, Police cannot just go into another country and arrest people. While I agree that this would be a better action, I don't see it as something that Lebanon would do.

I was thinking Israel, not Lebanon.

Last I heard, Hezbollah was demanding that their 200-ish prisoners be released in trade for the Israeli soldier(s). Would this not indicate that a snatch and grab operation has already occurred, to little (if any) success?

Ah, so you admit that the Hezbollah kidnapping is in response to these Israeli snatch job. Finally smeone else connects the dots.

I was also suggesting that Isreal do a snatch and grab to recover their own soldiers rather than bomb the locations. I think this indicates how little the Israeli's care for their soldiers if they are willing tp bomb locations where they may be held.

Unless you have proof that the Iranians are not involved, you're just guessing and choosing to believe one side over the other, much like the rest of us.

Well, what started out as a UAV has progressed to stories where two different Iranian missiles were used. The initial story was cooberated, even by the middle eastern media. I think this is more likely the truth.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

They like to claim they have the best special forces in the world, and the most of any army, well how about using them instead of doing what they are doing?

I thought the US claimed that?

I really don't understand what the ability of Israeli Special Forces has anything to do with the government deciding NOT to use them.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

I was thinking Israel, not Lebanon.

I know. If you read what I said, a country should police its own country - and I don't think Lebanon would do that in this case... and is why Israel has to.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Ah, so you admit that the Hezbollah kidnapping is in response to these Israeli snatch job. Finally smeone else connects the dots.

And the Israeli snatch job is in response to the other Hezbollah rockets, after which they used your "It is a Police action" theory, to no success.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

I was also suggesting that Isreal do a snatch and grab to recover their own soldiers rather than bomb the locations. I think this indicates how little the Israeli's care for their soldiers if they are willing tp bomb locations where they may be held.

I see this as a bigger issue than simply the kidnap of a couple of soldiers. It's a statement - leave us alone (rockets / kidnapping / etc) or pay the price. They've absorbed about as much as they can. They've played nice and politically so far with no results. They decided it was time to change tactics, apparently.

[Azure]

I never knew the UN had sent peacekeepers to the region. Heard on the news today that UN peacekeepers were helping clean up the mess in certain areas.

Also heard that 40-50% of Hezaballah infastructure had been destroyed.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

I thought the US claimed that?

Please! The US claims to have the best of everything. They are the greatest! Just ask them.

I really don't understand what the ability of Israeli Special Forces has anything to do with the government deciding NOT to use them.

The point is that if there was ever a situation where you wanted to use your special forces, this is it. I think this is an intentional disregard for the proper strategy and is an intentional show of force directed at civilians. That's why I can't side with the action. Those than have power must wield it wisely. Those that don't will see their power lead to their own destruction. So history has written, so history will apply to those who abuse their power. It's only a matter of time before the bullies get their heads handed to them.

[Azure]

Please! The US claims to have the best of everything. They are the greatest! Just ask them.

But I thought you said Israel claims that?

Maybe you should come clean and admit that each country has a respective group of Special Forces troops that can do the job when called upon. Instead of insulting the ability of every single member that has gone through hell to become a part of such a small community.

The point is that if there was ever a situation where you wanted to use your special forces, this is it. I think this is an intentional disregard for the proper strategy and is an intentional show of force directed at civilians. That's why I can't side with the action. Those than have power must wield it wisely. Those that don't will see their power lead to their own destruction. So history has written, so history will apply to those who abuse their power. It's only a matter of time before the bullies get their heads handed to them.

And you know that become you have 30 years of experiance with Special Forces troops, situations and such? Or because you're an armchair general that see's things the way you want to see them?

How do you even know that Israeli Special Forces aren't in Lebanon trying to find the captured soldiers?

But hey, if you have THAT much more knowledge then the guys that have BTDT, keep on going off the deep end, and making assumptions based on what the media tells you.

[Lucky boy]

Looks like Irseal thinks Iran is behind the kidnapping

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5192990.stm

This is looking familiar to what happened in Iraq. The months prior to the invasion of Iraq, we just kept hearing reports upon reports of weapons of mass desctruction, and all sort of things going on in Iraq. It seems like someone might be trying to raise support to form a coalition against Iran. The US/Isreal have certainly not wasted any oppertunities to take a shot at Iran.

I don't have much knowledge when it comes to what is happening in Iran, so I can't really comment on whether a war with Iran can be justified or not.

I really feel for the people of Lebanon, they have suffered the most, and have the least to do with anything.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

I don't have much knowledge when it comes to what is happening in Iran, so I can't really comment on whether a war with Iran can be justified or not.

Maybe you should quit with your ridiculous claims then....

This is looking familiar to what happened in Iraq. The months prior to the invasion of Iraq, we just kept hearing reports upon reports of weapons of mass desctruction, and all sort of things going on in Iraq. It seems like someone might be trying to raise support to form a coalition against Iran. The US/Isreal have certainly not wasted any oppertunities to take a shot at Iran.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

I really feel for the people of Lebanon, they have suffered the most, and have the least to do with anything.

That's exactly it.

Listen, Israel knows where every spec of water is in Lebanon. Don't tell me this operation wasn't pre-planned. They nailed Lebanon at the height of their touristic season, and brought the whole country to rubble. If they want to, they can go in without any problems, recover their two soldiers and dismantle Hizbollah in a matter of days. But they're intentions go beyond that, and by giving themselves a carte blanche they have now reached a Lebanese death toll of 230. Explain this to me, how does one compare 230 Lebanese deaths to 20 Israeli deaths? Why - because the life of an Israeli is worth literally that much more than any arab national.

Defend herself? This is how a country defends itself... well then call me stupid for I thought defending oneself would include eliminating harm from an oppressor. But what harm to the people in south of Lebanon pose? How about the people in the Bekaa Valley? or the people of southern Beirut? How about the bridges they have demolished? How about the relief buses they blew up on their way from the Emirates? How about the ports and the airports and the highways to help these ppl escape death? And Israel said they gave fair warning? WHo teh **** is living a double standard.

My two cents and im sick of Israel. They will get theirs.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Those than have power must wield it wisely. Those that don't will see their power lead to their own destruction. So history has written, so history will apply to those who abuse their power. It's only a matter of time before the bullies get their heads handed to them.

Hope you're not too disappointed when the USA, Israel, and the rest of the civilized world are still alive and kicking in 20...40...100 years.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by spiteface

That's exactly it.

Listen, Israel knows where every spec of water is in Lebanon. Don't tell me this operation wasn't pre-planned. They nailed Lebanon at the height of their touristic season, and brought the whole country to rubble. If they want to, they can go in without any problems, recover their two soldiers and dismantle Hizbollah in a matter of days. But they're intentions go beyond that, and by giving themselves a carte blanche they have now reached a Lebanese death toll of 230. Explain this to me, how does one compare 230 Lebanese deaths to 20 Israeli deaths? Why - because the life of an Israeli is worth literally that much more than any arab national.

Defend herself? This is how a country defends itself... well then call me stupid for I thought defending oneself would include eliminating harm from an oppressor. But what harm to the people in south of Lebanon pose? How about the people in the Bekaa Valley? or the people of southern Beirut? How about the bridges they have demolished? How about the relief buses they blew up on their way from the Emirates? How about the ports and the airports and the highways to help these ppl escape death? And Israel said they gave fair warning? WHo teh **** is living a double standard.

My two cents and im sick of Israel. They will get theirs.

Anti-semitism at its best.

You have no clue what is happening, do you?

[Cube Inmate]

"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain."
-Winston Churchill (attributed)

Not a bad description of the Arab and Israeli supporters (respectively) as well. You'd have to be heartless to support the IDF's operations against enemies with inferior arms. You'd have to be brainless to think that there's a solution to this thing involving anything other than all-out eradication of the extremists.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

But I thought you said Israel claims that?

I did say that, and it is recognized as being so around much of the globe. It was YOU that said the Americans claimed to be the best, where I sarcastically said "they claimed to be the best at everything", which they do. Not many people agree with them, but that doesn't stop Americans from thinking they are indeed the greatest civilization ever to have existed and still the world leader in everything.

Maybe you should come clean and admit that each country has a respective group of Special Forces troops that can do the job when called upon. Instead of insulting the ability of every single member that has gone through hell to become a part of such a small community.

Insulting them? Where the hell did I insult them? Holy over-reaction. I said the Israeli's claimed to have the best special forces units in the world (acknowledged by several sources as being pretty accurate), so I don't see that as being an insult to anyone.

And you know that become you have 30 years of experiance with Special Forces troops, situations and such? Or because you're an armchair general that see's things the way you want to see them?

I know that from what I read and who I talk to. And how do you know any different? Because YOU do the exact same thing, so save me your bull****. You know people, just like I do.

How do you even know that Israeli Special Forces aren't in Lebanon trying to find the captured soldiers?

They likely are in Lebanon. Someone has to paint the targets for them lazer guided bombs the Israelis are dropping. If they are trying to recover the soldiers, they are doing it in an awfully unoxthodox fashion.

But hey, if you have THAT much more knowledge then the guys that have BTDT, keep on going off the deep end, and making assumptions based on what the media tells you.

Blah blah blah. Again, you are doing the exact same thing, so quit your whining. You sound like a little bitch that just had her favorite doll taken away from her.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

Hope you're not too disappointed when the USA, Israel, and the rest of the civilized world are still alive and kicking in 20...40...100 years.

Are you intimating that only zionists are civilized? I don't get your point.

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain."
-Winston Churchill (attributed)

Yup, when he wasn't falling down ****ed drunk he could make some sense.

Not a bad description of the Arab and Israeli supporters (respectively) as well. You'd have to be heartless to support the IDF's operations against enemies with inferior arms.

I think that is why Israel doesn't get more support. They have an endless supply of American arms rolling in, and fighting combatants that are strapping explosives to themselves as a delivery mechanism. Does that explain the desperation these people have to win and what their cause means to them?

You'd have to be brainless to think that there's a solution to this thing involving anything other than all-out eradication of the extremists.

Now, when you say "all-out eradication of the extremists" does that include extremists on all sides, or just the side you are cheering for? Personally, I'd be up for a dawn firing squad of all extremists, on BOTH sides. That sure would solve a lot of problems all around the middle east, and get Bush out of my wallet once and for all!