Vaccines don't cause autism (duh)

[InglewoodFan]

A local business, whom I have supported for years and have always enjoyed their product, has taken to posting anti-vax links on their company Facebook and Twitter accounts. So I'm done with them. Not going to say anything to them or make a deal about it. Just not going to give them any business anymore.

Not sure if they really thought this bit of social media marketing out.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Just a hypothetical question for everyone. I'm all for vaccines like MMR and whatnot but I'm really struggling with the flu vaccine. I have not had a flu shot for as long as I can remember and I've also not had the flu. Especially with health analysts saying that those who received the vaccine both this year and last actually having a -15% protection for the flu this year, I'm wondering if we put the flu vaccine in the same category as the others?

At my workplace we get free flu shots, this season has been particularly bad, we have had a lot of people missing 2-3 days and even up to a week. In our department there is about 25 people, 4 people have missed a fair bit of work and they all didn't take the free flu shot, while the rest of us did.

Also not surprisingly my department is quite old on average, 50+, those people get the flu shot like a religious practice, they are old enough to remember life before we started to take it for granted.

I ask the same thing of people who don't take the flu shot, if you drove 20 years without a seat belt, would you believe that to be sound advice to continue not using one? I mean if I looked at my driving record, I could now have been driving for about 25 years without a seat belt and have been totally fine, does not mean I shouldn't be using one.

So its a matter of risk, vs reward. Flu shot is much less effective than childhood vaccines, but its much more difficult to get it right, however for me its about being at least doing my part since so many elderly and sick are at such high risk for flu, and my part is at least making sure I'm covered since my father is in an old folks home and I don't want to be taking any chances there.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

I find the big argument against the flu shot boils down to:

I got the flu shot once and I still got sick.

For some reason people tend to think that flu shot = never getting sick.

Flu is also such a generic term. There are not only multiple stains, but 'the stomach flu' which I don't believe is actually a influenza.

So much misinformation with the flu... a friend on my facebook was ranting about how horrible it is to have flu shots taking place at grocery stores and what is that doing to our food? I didn't have the energy to say "absolutely nothing" but that's also part of what the flu shot (and I suppose other vaccines/medications) have to face.

That and even though it's easier to get the flu shot, it's still a pain in the butt to get.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

I find the big argument against the flu shot boils down to:

I got the flu shot once and I still got sick.

For some reason people tend to think that flu shot = never getting sick.

Flu is also such a generic term. There are not only multiple stains, but 'the stomach flu' which I don't believe is actually a influenza.

"Stomach Flu" is the Norovirus I believe. It has been particularly bad this year, I know a ton of people who have gone down with that one. At least that one is over with quickly, even though it is ####ty (HA) at the time.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by InglewoodFan

A local business, whom I have supported for years and have always enjoyed their product, has taken to posting anti-vax links on their company Facebook and Twitter accounts. So I'm done with them. Not going to say anything to them or make a deal about it. Just not going to give them any business anymore.

Not sure if they really thought this bit of social media marketing out.

You should tell them, the more people that do the more likely the either shut up about it or change their position.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Thor

You should tell them, the more people that do the more likely the either shut up about it or change their position.

Absolutely tell them.
Make a big deal.

[FlameOn]

I love how the anti-vaxxers freak out about vaccines when they are healthy and reject health care in general but demand the best medicine has to offer when they actually get sick.

My coworker has a sister in law who is an anti-vaxxer. Theory is there they are from the generation that hasn't seen the horror of what some of the diseases like Polio can do to people... maybe some truth in that.

EDIT: As for mandatory vaccinations, why not do denial of government services and/or indemnification for costs of diseases they spread. If they are anti-vaxxers, make them sign that waver for highly dangerous and contagious diseases.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by AcGold

You seriously can't think of a single risk in giving the government 100% control over vaccinations?

I'm not anti-vaxx at all, 0% anti vaxx. I'm anti mandatory vaccination.

AC mate, that is like being kind of pregnant.

I'd take the option right off the table? Is it seriously an issue that people aren't vaccinating their kids and others suffer? If so education would do a lot more benefit than forcing it on eveyrone. Let it also be noted that some people should not be vaccinated as children due to medical issues such as epilepsy.

How much more education is needed? This isn't some new technology or concept. Vaccination is well known.

Based on history the first risk would be to minorities if the power was abused. Before you'd say the government would never do that let's remember the Canadian government had jails for native children where they were abused and conditioned to forsake their identity, until 1996.

I know of residential schools, but I have not heard of "jails for native children".

Can you provide a link?

[Azure]

The way I look at it the point of the flu shot is just to 'help' you fight the flu. You could easily still get it, but either way it is not life threatening.

Vaccines for measles, polio, smallpox, etc, etc are given so that you never get it, and are designed through herd immunization so that all of North America and the 1st world, and hopefully soon all 3rd world countries never get any of those diseases either. Bill Gates and others are spending billions trying to get all these vaccines to kids in need. A one shot type of deal that can basically cure the whole 'world' of these horrible diseases.

So yes, I would absolutely force mandatory vaccinations for measles, polio, etc, etc. Don't want to get it? Stay out of public places. Schools, arenas, stores. In fact, go live on an island by yourself.

Sad part is that isn't the parents that are at risk. Their kids are. Time for someone to take this to court and get a ruling to force mandatory vaccinations. Too many stupid parents making decisions that threaten the well being of thousands of other innocent children.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Just a hypothetical question for everyone. I'm all for vaccines like MMR and whatnot but I'm really struggling with the flu vaccine. I have not had a flu shot for as long as I can remember and I've also not had the flu. Especially with health analysts saying that those who received the vaccine both this year and last actually having a -15% protection for the flu this year, I'm wondering if we put the flu vaccine in the same category as the others?

This is my struggles too. I have tried to read as many journals I can on the subject but I haven't found any good information that there is a benefit. In fact in larger metastudies the flu shot doesn't seem to have a major benefit at all. In areas where there is mass flu shot (retirement homes) and all health care workers and residence get the shot, there seems to be no evidence of immunity improvements and no evidence of herd immunity. Especially the last two years they have missed the guess for the flu shot, but still recommend it no matter what.

there was an interesting study going on this year at the u of c that tested your immune system before and after the flu shots. I applied to get into it because since I have my doubt I thought it was only fair that I joined, but I didn't get selected unfortunately.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

A great article on why you should NOT have your kids vaccinated:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/please-vax-your-kids?

[Ducay]

Christ, Global News had a story about Jordan, the autistic figure skater in the special olympics. The lead in had the mom explaining how her daughter was vaccinated and then 2 days later she was autistic and a different person.

Just what we f*'n need during this outbreak, giving more reasons to the dipsh* anti-vaxxers to be the way they are.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Christ, Global News had a story about Jordan, the autistic figure skater in the special olympics. The lead in had the mom explaining how her daughter was vaccinated and then 2 days later she was autistic and a different person.

Just what we f*'n need during this outbreak, giving more reasons to the dipsh* anti-vaxxers to be the way they are.

I was just coming to post this. Just shook my head. I'm sorry your child is autistic, lady, but it had nothing to do with her vaccinations.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Wait… if vaccines did cause autism (they don't) then the argument that "she was vaccinated and two days later de was diagnosed with autism" would be a counter argument.

If your diagnosed with autism, it means the testing had started long before a vaccination was administered.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Azure

The way I look at it the point of the flu shot is just to 'help' you fight the flu. You could easily still get it, but either way it is not life threatening.

Except for the 236 people that have died in Canada this season because of the flu. And that's only 9 of the provinces/territories reporting.

The flu shot helps you fight the flu the exact same way the measles vaccine helps you fight the measles.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by photon

Except for the 236 people that have died in Canada this season because of the flu. And that's only 9 of the provinces/territories reporting.

The flu shot helps you fight the flu the exact same way the measles vaccine helps you fight the measles.

And that's probably a low estimate. Lots of elderly die from complications or don't really recover and I'm not sure that's included

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Azure

The way I look at it the point of the flu shot is just to 'help' you fight the flu. You could easily still get it, but either way it is not life threatening.

Personally, I don't think a flu shot is important to keep you or me safe. Assuming you're a person of reasonable health, you'll do fine with most cases of the flu...it's not the end of the world. It might suck for a few days but you'll get over it (most of the time).

But things are worse if you end up passing it along to grandma or grandpa and their weaker immune systems. They might not be able to do as well as the bulk of society and you can transmit it to them while you're just starting to feel symptomatic (if memory serves, you're most likely to transmit the day before your peak symptoms). That transmission can be a bit of trouble for them because of the fact that you didn't get a flu shot.

Edit - I guess Street Pharmacist kind of hinted at the same in the post above this one.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by Tiger

This is my struggles too. I have tried to read as many journals I can on the subject but I haven't found any good information that there is a benefit. In fact in larger metastudies the flu shot doesn't seem to have a major benefit at all. In areas where there is mass flu shot (retirement homes) and all health care workers and residence get the shot, there seems to be no evidence of immunity improvements and no evidence of herd immunity. Especially the last two years they have missed the guess for the flu shot, but still recommend it no matter what.

there was an interesting study going on this year at the u of c that tested your immune system before and after the flu shots. I applied to get into it because since I have my doubt I thought it was only fair that I joined, but I didn't get selected unfortunately.

Personally I think one of the problems with most of the available studies is that they are focused on seniors, who are a group that the vaccine doesn't work as well for. My belief is that seniors would likely benefit more from everyone around them being vaccinated than from getting it themselves.

There was an interesting study I read a few years ago. I believe they used children in Hutterite or Amish or some other group living in isolated communities. They gave some communities the flu vaccine and others a different vaccine. The communities with the flu vaccine had noticeably lower flu incidence, though not 100% protection.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

Personally I think one of the problems with most of the available studies is that they are focused on seniors, who are a group that the vaccine doesn't work as well for. My belief is that seniors would likely benefit more from everyone around them being vaccinated than from getting it themselves.

There was an interesting study I read a few years ago. I believe they used children in Hutterite or Amish or some other group living in isolated communities. They gave some communities the flu vaccine and others a different vaccine. The communities with the flu vaccine had noticeably lower flu incidence, though not 100% protection.

My problem with it is a fail to see many studies that seem unbiased and show good results. I will have to find the one study I read that showed vast difference in results based on the industry or public funded studies. I see the science and the results of the other vaccines but fail to see it in the flu shots. It seems like people would be significantly better off taking higher vitimin D loadings than the flu shot. If anybody has any good papers I would be interested in that.

I know people are stupid not taking vaccines for serious illnesses, but as an aside I still worry about the direction that science is going. Science really has now become a '#### you I'm right' type of thing for things like vaccines, climate change, etc.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Tiger

My problem with it is a fail to see many studies that seem unbiased and show good results. I will have to find the one study I read that showed vast difference in results based on the industry or public funded studies. I see the science and the results of the other vaccines but fail to see it in the flu shots. It seems like people would be significantly better off taking higher vitimin D loadings than the flu shot. If anybody has any good papers I would be interested in that.

I know people are stupid not taking vaccines for serious illnesses, but as an aside I still worry about the direction that science is going. Science really has now become a '#### you I'm right' type of thing for things like vaccines, climate change, etc.

It's not a paper, but a report in the Washington Post citing references.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...3d5_story.html

There is a movement toward treating science like a religion, which inevitably leads to the 'black and white' effect. It's probably because the industry around science is about as grey as you can get, and that's no fun at all. In a perfect world, science would be a continuous effort to create a black and white dichotomy, but adding 'cost' creates a world of mud.

I think of the '#### you I'm right' people as wide eyed optimists. And bless their little hearts.