Flames to announce plans to announce arena plans in the... future...

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Schraderbrau

I hate the attitudes that we should just be great full. We pay a fortune for our tickets and we are supposed to be a world class city. It's time we got rewarded for what we pay and shown that we are a world class city. If you can't admit that the dome is beneath our cities standards then you are crazy.

I flip flop back and forth on this issue, but the entitlement I quoted here actually made me laugh.

You make it sound like you deserve a new stadium supported with City money due to all the expensive night outs you have enjoyed at Flames games. The Flames organization may owe you, but the city does not.

Spending night's out and enjoying yourself is not a civic service.

[HOWITZER]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I was more referring to provincial tax dollars. ... which I should have specified of course.

I don't care what the Calgary city council does with Calgarian tax dollars.

Edit: I've gone back and clarified my original post.

So, just to understand. The person that lives in Okotoks wants to see to it that the provincial government that pays for things that have a benefit beyond city limit signs not spend money on an arena. However, municipal government spending is allowable.

Would it be fair to assume that there is a degree of "I don't want to pay for it!" in your argument? The issue I have with this is that a new arena in Calgary has a larger economic impact than what is captured within Calgary. It encourages people to travel from Okotoks, Lethbridge, Red Deer, etc. to go see events, which stimulates spending in other places. Obviously Calgary gets the biggest benefit, but there are benefits that are shared across the province.

A possible solution is not to say the provincial government not offer any financial assistance to the project, but that the contribution be reflective of the realizable benefits to Albertans beyond Calgary. This does not necessarily mean the government should pour money into the direct construction of the building, but it could support an entertainment district in town by increasing accessibility to the facility from out of town. Whether that be by improving provincially controlled roadways, developing a public intercity mass-transit system appropriate for the province that makes travelling between cities easier, or by other means.

There are lots of positive opportunities a provincial government could (and arguably should) exercise to help large-scale private projects such as these succeed and provide benefits to lots of people.

[Bunk]

If it does end up being West Village - perhaps the area the Province could contribute is toward environmental remediation from the creosote contamination, which benefits the whole neighbourhood redevelopment, not just the sports facility. Also, if it's a CRL that partially funds West Village/arena, if it's structured like East Village's CRL - they forego their portion of the property tax.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Joborule

You want nice things in your city? You're gonna have to pay for it, even if it isn't operated by the city itself in some cases like arenas/stadiums. That's the standard that's been establish, and it's not gonna change anytime soon.

You realize that several NHL arenas have been in recent years with only private money, right?

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You realize that several NHL arenas have been in recent years with only private money, right?

Aside from Toronto and Montreal, which have money up the ying yang, established history, and any threat of moving elsewhere was completely non-existent, I'm oblivious to those that got it covered 100%.

Even so, there are many, many more examples of teams in all leagues that have had their facilities built with the assistance of their jurisdiction providing funds.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Aside from Toronto and Montreal, which have money up the ying yang, established history, and any threat of moving elsewhere was completely non-existent, I'm oblivious to those that got it covered 100%.

Even so, there are many, many more examples of teams in all leagues that have had their facilities built with the assistance of their jurisdiction providing funds.

I'm pretty sure Vancouver and Ottawa built their arenas with private money also. The thing is both owners went belly up afterwards. Even billionaires may have trouble investing $.5B or more in an arena and it looks like what the Flames have planned is going to be closer to $1B.

Oh yeah and even Montreal had problems looking for a buyer after their new arena was built.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Aside from Toronto and Montreal, which have money up the ying yang, established history, and any threat of moving elsewhere was completely non-existent, I'm oblivious to those that got it covered 100%.

Even so, there are many, many more examples of teams in all leagues that have had their facilities built with the assistance of their jurisdiction providing funds.

These all exist in Calgary as well.

[Madrox]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Aside from Toronto and Montreal, which have money up the ying yang, established history, and any threat of moving elsewhere was completely non-existent, I'm oblivious to those that got it covered 100%.

Even so, there are many, many more examples of teams in all leagues that have had their facilities built with the assistance of their jurisdiction providing funds.

Originally Posted by MattyC

These all exist in Calgary as well.

1. Money

Calgary's done well recently, certainly, but not at the same level as Toronto or Montreal. If Forbes' data is accurate, they have their income levels at $70.6M and $59.8M, respectively, with the Flames at $22.3M, putting those teams at about 3x the profit of the Flames.

2. History

Not as significant a factor, but it's certainly true that the Leafs and the Canadiens have a much longer and more storied history than the Flames, with the corresponding fanbases to go with it.

3. Threat of Moving

Given that this was a very real threat the last time oil prices and the dollar were as low as they are now, I think it's foolish to downplay this factor. Corporate Calgary won't be able to sustain ticket purchases at the level they're currently at without things improving, and that's not even taking into account diminishing revenues vs. expenses with revenues being in CAD and expenses in USD, even without the numbers changing.


The situation is very different for Calgary now than Montreal or Toronto when they built their rinks.

[mhsyyc]

If anyone of any significance in the Flames organization reads this forum I'd caution them against even the merest of hints of a threat to move when the plans are announced. The organization is well loved and respected. That can end in an instance if an owner starts acting like Daryl Katz.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Even so, there are many, many more examples of teams in all leagues that have had their facilities built with the assistance of their jurisdiction providing funds.

Just because that's the norm in the U.S. doesn't mean it's the norm in Canada. Despite the free market rhetoric, American jurisdictions have a history of corporate welfare that isn't shared in Canada. And the threat of relocation is as hollow in Calgary as it is in Toronto or Montreal. There is no market in the U.S. where the NHL would be anywhere near as secure and profitable as it is in Calgary.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by getbak

Yes, they'll have all that in the new facility.

I guess I'm missing your original point. You said you don't understand why the Flames don't build a dedicated practice facility. A dedicated practice facility will be a key piece of the new building. Unlike a lot of teams whose practice facilities are a long distance from their home arena, the new practice facility will likely be connected directly to the main arena (I assume they'll use their regular dressing room and one door will lead to the arena and one to the practice rink), like they have in Columbus and the new Oilers' building.

Until the new building is open, they'll have to work with what they have available now.

I guess I'm saying that I don't understand why this wasn't built some time ago. If it's truly a reason why UFA's don't want to sign here.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

there is no market in the U.S. where the NHL would be anywhere near as secure and profitable as it is in Calgary.

I wouldn't be so sure with CAD at .80. That automatically decreases player personnel costs by 20% if they moved to the US which is massive.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Madrox

1. Money

Calgary's done well recently, certainly, but not at the same level as Toronto or Montreal. If Forbes' data is accurate, they have their income levels at $70.6M and $59.8M, respectively, with the Flames at $22.3M, putting those teams at about 3x the profit of the Flames.

I was more referring to the wealth of the city overall and specifically, the owners of the Flames. I honestly don't mind the city putting into the facility in a couple different ways: Land, infrastructure improvements around the area (If it's West Village, Crowchild/Bow/Memorial is going to need a serious overhaul, as if it doesn't already), and to the public facilities portions. But IMO, it's important that not a single dime is put towards the actual Flames stadium. Don't know how, or if its even possible, to work a contract that way for something like this.

2. History

Not as significant a factor, but it's certainly true that the Leafs and the Canadiens have a much longer and more storied history than the Flames, with the corresponding fanbases to go with it.

Calgary may not be an original six team, but they have equal or more history than pretty much any other team outside the original 6.

3. Threat of Moving

Given that this was a very real threat the last time oil prices and the dollar were as low as they are now, I think it's foolish to downplay this factor. Corporate Calgary won't be able to sustain ticket purchases at the level they're currently at without things improving, and that's not even taking into account diminishing revenues vs. expenses with revenues being in CAD and expenses in USD, even without the numbers changing.

The Flames are not moving. No shot, and to play that card would be ludicrous. As ludicrous as it was in Edmonton. And just because Edmontonians fell over themselves about it, they got bent over in their arena deal and anyone can see that. The dollar and Oil prices did play a role last time, but one thing is missing from that scenario and that is the cap, which is tied to league revenue of which the CDN teams make up the majority. If their revenues fall as a result of the dollar, so does the cap. Everyone will remain on the same playing field financially. If low oil prices today are going to be used as an excuse for public funds, what happens when they inevitably go back up in a few years? Does the city get paid back on funds as percentage of the price change in oil? Basing the amount of funds needed from the public on a volatile resource price is dumb. This is something the Flames owners want to attract players and high quality people to THEIR organization, and if "the city is poor because of oil!" is the excuse, it is absolutely not necessary to build this building. The Saddledome has ice and plenty of seats and can stand for a few more years while prices go back up.

The situation is very different for Calgary now than Montreal or Toronto when they built their rinks.

Thoughts in bold

[Bingo]

sigh ... can't wait until I click in here to see pictures and maps and counts of bathrooms and beer stands and not the public money brawl.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Bingo

sigh ... can't wait until I click in here to see pictures and maps and counts of bathrooms and beer stands and not the public money brawl.

I can't wait until I can stop posting my customary Chris Farley gif every time this thread is bumped.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The Flames are not moving. No shot, and to play that card would be ludicrous. As ludicrous as it was in Edmonton. And just because Edmontonians fell over themselves about it, they got bent over in their arena deal and anyone can see that. The dollar and Oil prices did play a role last time, but one thing is missing from that scenario and that is the cap, which is tied to league revenue of which the CDN teams make up the majority. If their revenues fall as a result of the dollar, so does the cap. Everyone will remain on the same playing field financially. If low oil prices today are going to be used as an excuse for public funds, what happens when they inevitably go back up in a few years? Does the city get paid back on funds as percentage of the price change in oil? Basing the amount of funds needed from the public on a volatile resource price is dumb. This is something the Flames owners want to attract players and high quality people to THEIR organization, and if "the city is poor because of oil!" is the excuse, it is absolutely not necessary to build this building. The Saddledome has ice and plenty of seats and can stand for a few more years while prices go back up.

Although the threat of Flames moving is mostly without substance, the fact that Quebec City has a new arena that's waiting for a NHL tennant, Seattle prime for a team in the near future, Las Vegas apparently happening as well, and lets not forget Kansas City also having a new state of the art facility that's waiting for a major tenant, does give Flames owners cards to play with. The city could and should call it's bluff if the owners were to use it, but there always is the possibly that the Flames would sell the team to parties interested in moving the franchise over to mentioned locations.

After all, Minnesota had their team move to Dallas after a new arena couldn't get built.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

The Flames will absolutely end up moving, EVENTUALLY, if they don't get a new building. Agreed, the building situation is absolutely not something that will see the Flames leave town in the short term. 10 years from now, if the Flames are still in the Dome with no new rink on the horizon, then the moving argument is valid.

Should the Flames wait to build a new building until it's 100% absolutely necessary to keep the business viable is a fair question I guess.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Just because that's the norm in the U.S. doesn't mean it's the norm in Canada. Despite the free market rhetoric, American jurisdictions have a history of corporate welfare that isn't shared in Canada. And the threat of relocation is as hollow in Calgary as it is in Toronto or Montreal. There is no market in the U.S. where the NHL would be anywhere near as secure and profitable as it is in Calgary.

To be fair, if the Flames owners wanted out when/if they start losing money because of the older Saddledome, I doubt they would move the franchise themselves, they would sell it first. If no one locally wanted to buy the team, because they would be forced to spend at least $300 million to build a new arena to make it viable, then the Flames owners would be forced to sell it to someone who wanted the franchise in another center (Quebec City, Las Vegas, Kansas City, etc). If in 5 years the CDN dollar is still suffering, then the Flames would be in trouble financially with an older arena, even in the cap era.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Although the threat of Flames moving is mostly without substance, the fact that Quebec City has a new arena that's waiting for a NHL tennant, Seattle prime for a team in the near future, Las Vegas apparently happening as well, and lets not forget Kansas City also having a new state of the art facility that's waiting for a major tenant, does give Flames owners cards to play with. The city could and should call it's bluff if the owners were to use it, but there always is the possibly that the Flames would sell the team to parties interested in moving the franchise over to mentioned locations.

That rink in KC was designed and broke ground more than 10 years ago. Not old in "reality" standards, but halfway through its lifecycle in "new sports facilities", which is really annoying.

I know you said "mostly without substance" so I'm not arguing with you at all, but I think it's really "completely devoid of substance".

[Mista_Incognito]

Originally Posted by Bingo

sigh ... can't wait until I click in here to see pictures and maps and counts of bathrooms and beer stands and not the public money brawl.

I noticed the city has recently posted a Crowchild Trail Corridor Study schedule. They plan on engaging local communities on the design of the corridor starting this month. It says:

"The work of the Engagement Design Team and the resultant engagement program will be shared with the public in the spring of 2015."

Crowchild Trail Corridor Study


You would have to think that Flames would be involved with this if its going to be West Village.

This is might be crazy talk but I would say something is finally going to go down this spring.