Toronto is no good

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by scrambler

edit: Funny, but not actually true

http://video.coyotes.nhl.com/videocenter/

Click on "Ekman-Larsson's Goal"

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Somehow I think a 33 year old Kessel will play like he's 40.

Seriously, he (a) plays a speed game and (b) seemingly has a fitness issue. Some speedsters who lose a step really drop off in value.

He's completely healthy and isn't physical. That's a big reason he still could be very good in his 30's.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I didn't mean he was close to Clarkson in value but he would be nearly impossible to trade with that contract and particularly that term much like Clarkson .....at least if the leafs wanted any sort of return.

Kessel is a very good offensive player who is not a leader, doesn't play a 200' game and has a very questionable fitness level. That simply ain't exactly something all teams are in the market for.

Kessel could be traded tomorrow and get the Leafs a great return.

You can name every negative you want to try to spin it like he has begative value, but many GMs would love to have a guy who puts up those stats every year. There are very few of them in the NHL. I think david Poile for onem, would love to have him.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Locke

Kessel is about what you'd expect. I think he and his contract are even value.

Phaneuf is a boat anchor. I never understand what GMs are thinking, he just signed that contract, he was bad then and hes arguably worse now, what were they thinking offering him that contract and then they suddenly realized it was a terrible idea? Did they just do it for HBO Brownie Points? I honestly dont get it. Phaneuf is worth about half that. Maybe.

Clarkson was madness. That was madness from start to finish. Clarkson's contract is the very definition of 'we had a lockout for this?'

Now you're getting silly. He's get maybe 3.5 million as a D-Man? Have you seen the salaries nowadays?

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I assume by "numbers" you mean points. Because there are other numbers that are different. Ever think Kane might have "lesser" numbers over the last 3 years because he's become a more complete player?

Plus Kane is a winner, and big game player. Phil, not so much.

Patrick Kane is not a complete player. Not even close. And he's a "Winner" because of his surrounding talent.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

He's completely healthy and isn't physical. That's a big reason he still could be very good in his 30's.

Sounds like Krutov.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Patrick Kane is not a complete player. Not even close. And he's a "Winner" because of his surrounding talent.

Please try and read what I actually wrote. He's a more complete player than he was. And, I might add, a more complete player than Kessel.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Please try and read what I actually wrote. He's a more complete player than he was. And, I might add, a more complete player than Kessel.

Kane is completely one-dimensional.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Patrick Kane is not a complete player. Not even close. And he's a "Winner" because of his surrounding talent.

Kane may turn pucks over, but he's one of the first back to retrieve it. I've almost never seen Kessel on his own end

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Kane is completely one-dimensional.

Now I know you are just making stuff up. Anyone who follows the Hawks even a bit knows Kane has paid more attention to defence in the last few years.

And I don't know anyone who pays less attention to D than Kessel, outside of a couple Oilers. Johnny Gaudreau checks harder in his own end.

[GioforPM]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...110-story.html

[Karl]

Sportsnet Stats
‏@SNstats Peter Horachek sets record for the worst 10-game start to a #Leafs head coaching career (1-8-1). Toronto is no good

[crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Karl

Sportsnet Stats
‏@SNstats Peter Horachek sets record for the worst 10-game start to a #Leafs head coaching career (1-8-1). Toronto is no good

Whoa, that's actually some very real no goodness right there.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Kessel could be traded tomorrow and get the Leafs a great return.

You can name every negative you want to try to spin it like he has begative value, but many GMs would love to have a guy who puts up those stats every year. There are very few of them in the NHL. I think david Poile for onem, would love to have him.

Of course teams would love his offense, but they would also expect a complete game from someone who makes over 10% of their entire salary cap room. Not to mention a leadership role that he simply has never shown he has.

Im truly curious what you think that his value would be. Knowing his deficiencies, that he has 56 million dollars still owed after this year, and that he isnt even a ppg player in his Leaf career (never mind his +/- totals)....I would really like to be informed what that return would be.

here are 3 random teams...what would the deal look like with each?

Washington, Dallas, Winnipeg

[Senator Clay Davis]

At what point does the mandate from the top become lose out to try and get McDavid or Eichel? I mean it might take a 3-25-2 record to get into the bottom three, but Toronto is clearly terrible and going nowhere.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Patrick Kane is not a complete player. Not even close. And he's a "Winner" because of his surrounding talent.

Wow he has a freaking Conn Smythe. He literally scored the Stanley Cup winning goal. you are unreal.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Karl

Sportsnet Stats
‏@SNstats Peter Horachek sets record for the worst 10-game start to a #Leafs head coaching career (1-8-1). Toronto is no good

I go back to the preseason discussions here where you kind of got the indication trouble was brewing with this team. When there was that story at the beginning of the season when one of the new assistant coaches asked a tubby Phil Kessel to participate in a drill to which he said he wouldn't because it was stupid (or something along those lines) you just knew that things were never going to go well for this team when your highest paid player is showing up the coaches. Even if the drill was dumb as a leader you do it and then maybe discuss with the head coach in private after to air your beef.

It's pretty obvious that Kessel will have to be moved for the Leafs to ultimately get better but the problem much like with the Oilers players is that teams are weary of giving up lots for overpaid losers that aren't very coachable. The Leafs will never get what fans feel Kessel is worth so it's a difficult situation as you have to get rid of him but the return is not going to please the fan base and that's if they can find a taker for him with that contract with the salary cap possibly going down. Chances are teams are going to want to send a bad contract back in addition to maybe a 1st round pick and prospect for him. He's certainly not going to get back a return like Taylor Hall would for instance who is younger and possibly still salvageable.

[Burke Salad]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

At what point does the mandate from the top become lose out to try and get McDavid or Eichel? I mean it might take a 3-25-2 record to get into the bottom three, but Toronto is clearly terrible and going nowhere.

Could you imagine the pressure on McDavid if he lands in Toronto, that would be crippling for the kid!

[Vinny01]

The Leafs are a complete mess. The Phanuef-Kessel leadership group has to be the worst in hockey especially when you take their contracts into consideration. Both players should be in their absolute prime. They have some nice support pieces but this team is in big trouble and would be wise to tear it down and rebuild through the draft.

The return some Leaf fans think they will get for their players is laughable

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Kane is completely one-dimensional.

What, exactly, would that make Kessel?

More importantly, how exactly does this all work in your mind? Is Phaneuf is an awesome defenceman - one of the world's best - right up until you trade him, at which point you will suddenly see the light and realize he is overpaid and overrated?

Speaking of finally seeing the light, are you ready to admit that the Leafs made a rather large mistake trading Gunnarson for Polak yet?