Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[Wookie]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html

Eight Canadians were among those killed Sunday in southern Lebanon, a spokesman for Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay said.

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Why? Lebanon has made no effort to rid the country of their terrorist cell who is attacking israel. Until they renounce Hezbollah and do something about it, their fair game.

It'd be worthwhile to actually understand the nature of Hezbollah and the Lebanese state before making comments as assinine as this.

Lebanon has, in fact, zero capacity of disarming Hezbollah with the present state of its military. Also, Hezbollah is not just a militia movement but a legitimate political unit occupying about 20% of the Lebanese elected officials. Hezbollah is also a humanitarian agency that is the primary distributor of food aid, medical aid and education in southern Lebanon.

So glibly implying that Lebanon has some kind of control of Hezbollah and is thus responsible for their actions is false and incoporates and laughably simplistic outlook on the situation.

[Hakan]

From Gwynne Dyer:

But Israel’s actions in the past two weeks, since an attack on a military outpost left two Israeli soldiers dead and one a prisoner in the hands of Palestinian militants, have clearly “violated the principle of proportionality”, as the Swiss put it. On Thursday, for example, the death toll was one Israeli soldier and 23 Palestinians, close to half of whom appear to have been unarmed civilians.

Cpl. Gilad Shalit, the soldier who was taken hostage, is no more to blame for the mess he inherited than any other 19-year-old Israeli or Palestinian, and he certainly does not deserve to die. But it is hard to see how blowing up the Gaza Strip’s main power-generating station or arresting eight cabinet ministers and 34 legislators of the democratically elected government of the occupied Palestinian territories in simultaneous night raids on their homes furthers the cause of Cpl. Shalit’s freedom. There is no sense of proportion here.

Israeli columnist Gideon Levy, writing in the newspaper Ha’aretz, put it best: “It is not legitimate to cut off 750,000 people from electricity. It is not legitimate to call on 20,000 people to run from their homes and turn their towns into ghost towns. It is not legitimate to kidnap half a government and a quarter of a parliament. A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization.”

http://www.straight.com/content.cfm?id=19032

[comrade]

Originally Posted by Jayems

But all things considered... what the hell were they doing staying home right smack-dab in the middle of a war zone? What are they tring to prove? Guess they proved that it can happen to them.

If there is a war between USA and Canada, and my house is right in the middle.. i might think about leaving.

Gee, I never knew you've been caught in a war. You must have some specific pointers on how to get out of a country with bombed out roads, a naval blockade and no secure airspace. Feel free to enlighten the rest of us with your worldly experience.

I'd also love to hear of your plan to leave Canada if the US were to suddenly start attacking it. How hard could it possibly be, right? I'm sure you could just drive to Russia through the Arctic, or just sail a ship through a naval blockade. Or maybe you think you could just cross the border and pretend to be an American.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Why? Lebanon has made no effort to rid the country of their terrorist cell who is attacking israel. Until they renounce Hezbollah and do something about it, their fair game.

I look the colonel in the eye, "I'm not sure that your air strikes fit these criteria, since you're not planning on launching them until next week. Where's the imminent threat?"

"It's an ongoing threat. We have to ensure that Hezbollah's capabilities remain at a manageable level."

"Isn't that the job of the Lebanese government?" I asked. "What you're proposing is, after all, an armed intervention within the territory of a sovereign nation-state."

"The Lebanese government can't control Hezbollah," she scoffed, "If it could, we wouldn't be having this conversation."

Although the law of self-defence sometimes permits military action against state sponsors of terrorism, this was a different argument.

"You seem to be suggesting that Lebanon, within its southern territories, amounts to a failed state."

"Precisely," she smiled. "We're not violating international law by targeting Hezbollah installations in southern Lebanon because the writ of the Lebanese government doesn't run that far."

The argument was familiar. During my years of teaching in the United States, students had sometimes argued that the UN charter's prohibition on the use of force against a country's "territorial integrity or political independence" shouldn't extend to those — such as Somalia — without effective governments.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=968350116795

[Flash Walken]

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

But what does Canada gain. Like you said before, other countries choose sides based on where thier interests lie. Is Canada just standing up for whats right because we are good people? Does Canada have interests in supporting Isreal? I was just a little suprised by it. I guess it doesn't really matter that much, but I would have preferred a more neutral statement.

It seems that Canada's interest is to be on the same page as the US. Harpers hardline polarized comments about this war were foolish, and will likely bite him in the butt now that Canadians have died in these "measured" attacks.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Kinda funny how you are the only person out of all the inteligent posters contributing to this thread who made that assertion........kinda seems like your on an island bud because NO BODY agrees with you.

Give it up, you are WRONG, you jumped to conclusions about me with no basis, and are now trying to save face with this weak attempt of a rebuttal. Its not working though, your biased and have no respect for others, unless you give me facts to back up your dumb ass statments i will not go back and forth with you, what a useless waste of time.

So you're saying you did write it, but you never meant it?

Maybe you should explain yourself, so I don't have to disagree with you...

[HOOT]

2 words: Parking Lot!

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

It seems that Canada's interest is to be on the same page as the US. Harpers hardline polarized comments about this war were foolish, and will likely bite him in the butt now that Canadians have died in these "measured" attacks.

I guess he should come out and say he supports the efforts of the terrorists in their struggle to annex Israel from the face of the world, since we all know Israel is that big bad evil democarcy we all hate, and since they are allies with the US, and inevitably Bush, we hate them so much more.

It has nothing to do with Israel for years trying to appease those terrorists, giving them land, establishing a peace settlement with the Lebanon government, which has done nothing. Israel should be burned to the ground, and the terrorists should have free reign over their land to plan their terror on other democratic nations.

Right? Or don't you think Israel should do what the Lebanon government can't, and free their citizens from the terror that influx's their country?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Azure

I guess he should come out and say he supports the efforts of the terrorists in their struggle to annex Israel from the face of the world, since we all know Israel is that big bad evil democarcy we all hate, and since they are allies with the US, and inevitably Bush, we hate them so much more.

It has nothing to do with Israel for years trying to appease those terrorists, giving them land, establishing a peace settlement with the Lebanon government, which has done nothing. Israel should be burned to the ground, and the terrorists should have free reign over their land to plan their terror on other democratic nations.

Right? Or don't you think Israel should do what the Lebanon government can't, and free their citizens from the terror that influx's their country?

Yup, that's right, he was suggesting that Harper should come out in support of the terrorists. Good catch.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Hakan

It'd be worthwhile to actually understand the nature of Hezbollah and the Lebanese state before making comments as assinine as this.

Lebanon has, in fact, zero capacity of disarming Hezbollah with the present state of its military. Also, Hezbollah is not just a militia movement but a legitimate political unit occupying about 20% of the Lebanese elected officials. Hezbollah is also a humanitarian agency that is the primary distributor of food aid, medical aid and education in southern Lebanon.

So glibly implying that Lebanon has some kind of control of Hezbollah and is thus responsible for their actions is false and incoporates and laughably simplistic outlook on the situation.

If Lebanon can't disarm or force the Hezbollah to stop thier attacks on Israel, and the UN hasen't been able to stop these attacks, then it comes down to Israel to protect thier citizen's so in my mind, that justifies Israel's response.

who gives a crap if Hezbollah is a humanitarian agency, its akin to saying that what Hitler did could be justified because he fed his people. The world would be a better place if Hezbollah was erased from the southern terrorities

Sorry, If Lenanon wants to consider itself to be an actual government in charge of an actual nation it has to bring these elements to heel. What really ****es me off is that people are giving them a free pass here. Lebanon should be demanding more action from the Hezbollah members in thier own government.

And its not that simplistic for Israel to expect its neighbours to keep these lunatics from murdering its citizen's with rocket attacks from thier territory.

You can't give a free pass because you can't control them.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Yup, that's right, he was suggesting that Harper should come out in support of the terrorists. Good catch.

From what I read, it sounds like that. Israel needs to do this. If they don't the attacks don't stop. Israeli civilians will continue to have rockets shot at them. Israeli soldiers will continue to get captured.

The only way this stops is if Israel breaks the back of those openly trying to destroy them. That includes the militant arm of Hamas and Hezbollah.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

It seems that Canada's interest is to be on the same page as the US. Harpers hardline polarized comments about this war were foolish, and will likely bite him in the butt now that Canadians have died in these "measured" attacks.

Hi Winsor

Just because Harper has come out in defense of Israel dosen't mean that he's crawling into bed with Bush and U.S. foreign policy.

How is it a hardline comment. When Harper said that Israel has a right to defend itself, and that Israel's response has been measured. He's right on both parts.

If any statement is out of kilter, its the statement by the Canadian Arab Association

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=11378

Who once again ignores the attacks on Israel over the past few years, and ignores that out of any group in the middle east Israel has given up the most for peace.

Maybe the Canadian Arab Association should hold the Hezbollah responsible for the deaths of the Canadian's there, since its there actions that lead to the attack on Lebanon.

[Vulcan]

I think that Israel has the right to defend itself or it gets wiped out. Looking a little deeper, Israel certainly hasn't won any popularity contests in their treatment of the Arabs. Sometimes I think we should just back off and let them destroy one another but the war would probably just get worse and spread to our shores [it already has]. Both are a bunch of crazy, focked up people spreading their hate.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Yup, that's right, he was suggesting that Harper should come out in support of the terrorists. Good catch.

Well you either support Israel in their desire to rid Heballah out of Lebanon, or you support Hezaballah and their quest to annex the nation of Israel. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well you either support Israel in their desire to rid Heballah out of Lebanon, or you support Hezaballah and their quest to annex the nation of Israel. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

haha...you mean you're either with them or against them? I think I've heard that somewhere before. The world is a simple place.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

I guess he should come out and say he supports the efforts of the terrorists in their struggle to annex Israel from the face of the world, since we all know Israel is that big bad evil democarcy we all hate, and since they are allies with the US, and inevitably Bush, we hate them so much more.

It has nothing to do with Israel for years trying to appease those terrorists, giving them land, establishing a peace settlement with the Lebanon government, which has done nothing. Israel should be burned to the ground, and the terrorists should have free reign over their land to plan their terror on other democratic nations.

Right? Or don't you think Israel should do what the Lebanon government can't, and free their citizens from the terror that influx's their country?

You know, for all the accusations you level at people about spinning mindless hyperbole, you're pretty good at too.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well you either support Israel in their desire to rid Heballah out of Lebanon, or you support Hezaballah and their quest to annex the nation of Israel. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Thank you Dubya. Yup, I really hope Hezaballah (who ever the **** that is) sneaks a nuke into downtown Jerusalem and makes a few of them thar jew-boys extra crispy! After all, you're either with the zionists or against them, right Azure. There can be no middle ground.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by comrade

Gee, I never knew you've been caught in a war. You must have some specific pointers on how to get out of a country with bombed out roads, a naval blockade and no secure airspace. Feel free to enlighten the rest of us with your worldly experience.

I'd also love to hear of your plan to leave Canada if the US were to suddenly start attacking it. How hard could it possibly be, right? I'm sure you could just drive to Russia through the Arctic, or just sail a ship through a naval blockade. Or maybe you think you could just cross the border and pretend to be an American.

And exactly how do you know i've not?