[News] Bennett Out 4-6 Months with Shoulder Surgery *UPDATE* Back Skating

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by theoforever

For purely selfish reasons I would like to see Bennett play in the NHL this year.
However, due to injury I think the best thing for the kid is to go to juniors, finish the year there, get stronger and come up next season.

I also think that this is likely that Bennett will finish the OHL season in Kingston, but I am also of the opinion that the right thing to do is to see how he handles the adjustment after injury in the pro leagues. He is good enough a player already that he could conceivably make this team significantly better NOW, even coming off of an injury.

Some people are so convinced about his fragility that they seem to have decided without even having seen a healthy Bennett in action that he is the china doll of hockey.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Actually, the reason they should try him out and see where he is, is precisely because he might just be exactly that.

Really? If the Oilers did this you would be all over them for rushing a player and then laughing about them putting his development at risk.

For you to say he is not, like it's a fact, is silly. They are a bubble team right now and adding his talent, energy and tenacity just might be the difference. Unlikely, sure. But what on earth do they have to lose in seeing?

What do they have to lose? Games? They are a bubble team and every single game matters from this point forward. Throwing a complete unknown out there, who has not played a single period of hockey since the season started, is unwise when you're trying to stay in a playoff race.

Yes he is 18 and coming off shoulder surgery. So obviously you tread carefully, move slowly, and shut things down if there are any concerns. Also, it should go without saying that if he doesn't show - in advance - that he has the health, strength, and game necessary to be successful, then it's a non-starter. But if he keeps passing all the tests, then it only makes sense to keep going.

Why risk it? Why put the best center this team has probably ever drafted at risk just to see where he is at? Why put games that we need to win at risk by putting a young and unproven player at the professional level in the lineup? If they want to see where he is at against men, send him to the AHL for a conditioning stint and evaluate his performance at that point. If he looks good there, then consider giving him a game, but throwing him directly into the NHL at this point is just bad management.

To blindly and stubbornly dismiss him outright with a prior-made decision that ignores how he is actually doing, is managerial failure.

A managerial failure is to rush him. Two of his peers, drafted before him, were way in over their heads. Why would the less physically mature Bennett be any different?

[Gaskal]

He's also the highest Flames pick in history. He has been in the room and around the team this year, learning their systems and their work ethic while Flames monitored his shoulder. They were going to do it properly - you get the feeling that the Flames would wait until he's absolutely ready to hit the ice before making any decisions.

If youngsters like Monahan, Gaudreau can leap right in and make a difference, it's not exactly a reach to assume that a very highly rated prospect like Sam has the potential to as well. As he is on the Flames roster, he can be given a small conditioning stint of 3-4 AHL games before the Flames really have to make a decision. I think Sam will agree to anything that gets him back on the ice ASAP, the kid is probably going crazy.

If he looks rusty, reassign to OHL right away. If he tears up the AHL, reward him with a taste of the NHL. Play him on the 3rd line with Jooris and Colborne against really easy competition. If he continues to perform, play him up to 9 games...and then send him back down to OHL while singing praises at him out the door. Or keep him for a playoff push. But probably the former.

[Vinny01]

Bennett is not a complete unknown. He was the top rated prospect going into the draft and that was after panting the majority of his draft year with a shoulder injury. The Flames have monitored him very closely during the rehab process and know where he is physically.

as usual I comlletey disagree with everything New Era posts.

I just don't see the harm giving him the AHL conditioning stint and go from there. Take it day by day.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

Really? If the Oilers did this you would be all over them for rushing a player and then laughing about them putting his development at risk.

Only if it was clearly the wrong decision. I'm not convinced it is with Bennett.

Originally Posted by New Era

What do they have to lose? Games? They are a bubble team and every single game matters from this point forward. Throwing a complete unknown out there, who has not played a single period of hockey since the season started, is unwise when you're trying to stay in a playoff race.

This is not the only option for Bennett, which is why some of us have been arguing in favour of sending him to Adirondack when he is cleared to play. Another test, after which another decision is made based on how well he did.

Originally Posted by New Era

Why risk it? Why put the best center this team has probably ever drafted at risk just to see where he is at?

Because some of us believe that the "risk" is exceptionally low, and further, because the reward is potentially huge. This is about responsible risk management, and I would question the decision for the team to draw ANY conclusion before seeing where Bennett is at.

Originally Posted by New Era

Why put games that we need to win at risk by putting a young and unproven player at the professional level in the lineup? If they want to see where he is at against men, send him to the AHL for a conditioning stint and evaluate his performance at that point.

Which is precisely what many of us have been suggesting for some time now. As far as I can tell, Enoch Root's post pretty clearly aligns with this sort of thinking as well. But also complimenting this decision is recognition of the very real possibility that he DOES play well enough to warrant at least a few games in Calgary this year.

Originally Posted by New Era

A managerial failure is to rush him. Two of his peers, drafted before him, were way in over their heads. Why would the less physically mature Bennett be any different?

Because not all players are the same? And if we discover the same about Bennett after a few games, then isn't everyone much better off knowing EXACTLY where he stands? Edmonton's managerial failure was to keep Draisaitl on the team well after he was CLEARLY not ready. Had they sent him back to PA after a few games, or upon the conclusion of his first nine, there would have been nothing to criticise. Giving a player NHL minutes is not always akin to "rushing him." "Rushing" a player is insisting upon gifting him undeserved ice time, and foisting upon him unrealistic expectations when everything about his current level of play suggests he is overwhelmed. However, it seems short sighted to me to not at minimum continue to raise the bar of expectations for a kid who is CLEARLY chomping at the bit to succeed.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Just because a young player is good enough to crack an NHL roster doesn't mean it's in his or the team's long-term interest to play in the NHL right away. RNH was good enough to crack the Oilers's lineup straight out of the draft. But does anyone now really think the Oilers made the right decision by playing him in the NHL right away? I'm confident Treliving is smarter than that.

So, because RNH was a bad decision, all 18 year olds would be a bad decision?

What about MacKinnon? Or are we only using examples that fit the narrative?

Again, why make an a priori decision? I think Treliving is smarter than that.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Flames will play within the division in the first round.

Not necessarily - though I assume this is a statement based on how the standings may shake out, i.e. Flames in 8th and Ducks winning the conference?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by New Era

Really? If the Oilers did this you would be all over them for rushing a player and then laughing about them putting his development at risk.

You have no idea how I would react. And... I am actually capable of making decisions independently on different players. This may be news to you, but not all players are exactly the same.

What do they have to lose? Games? They are a bubble team and every single game matters from this point forward. Throwing a complete unknown out there, who has not played a single period of hockey since the season started, is unwise when you're trying to stay in a playoff race.

You can't be that naïve, so I will assume you are just being obtuse. This is an NHL franchise - they are probably going to wait until they have a good idea on a player before they 'throw' him out there. (seriously, that's a child's argument)

Why risk it? Why put the best center this team has probably ever drafted at risk just to see where he is at? Why put games that we need to win at risk by putting a young and unproven player at the professional level in the lineup? If they want to see where he is at against men, send him to the AHL for a conditioning stint and evaluate his performance at that point. If he looks good there, then consider giving him a game, but throwing him directly into the NHL at this point is just bad management.

Same answer: you only do it if he proves he's ready. How can that be such a hard concept to grasp?

A managerial failure is to rush him. Two of his peers, drafted before him, were way in over their heads. Why would the less physically mature Bennett be any different?

Yes, rushing him would be a managerial failure. But if he shows he's ready, it's not.
And why would other players matter? Pastrnak was drafted behind him and is playing, does that prove he IS ready?

Finally, he has had 6 months to mature and get stronger. That's a lot for an 18 year old. If he still isn't ready, fine. But if he is, the status of other players is irrelevant.

Making an a priori decision (apparently to prove they're not the Oilers), would also be a managerial failure.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Not necessarily - though I assume this is a statement based on how the standings may shake out, i.e. Flames in 8th and Ducks winning the conference?

Ducks winning the conference doesn't matter.

Flames would play within the division unless they finish 8th, and BOTH wild cards are from the Pacific (i.e. the Flames were ahead of the 4th place team in the Central). If that were the case, they would cross over.

[Lanny_McDonald]

@ Textcritic

I don't disagree with sending Bennett on a conditioning stint to see how he is. If you check this thread I was very open to that when he started skating, knowing the team would have to make a decision on him. I've been a big proponent of the use of the conditioning stint for all players coming off of the IR. I think it is a great way of getting guys some game time without hurting the big club and the team should use it with much greater frequency.

The problem with Bennett is he has always been behind the other players in maturation and development. That is fully expected since he is about 6-9 months younger than his peers from his draft class. The knock on him has always been his lack of physique. Because he's been away from the game with a shoulder injury that precluded him from doing any sort of training it is pretty easy to say that aspect has not improved. It may have been better for him to have suffered a knee injury than a shoulder injury as he could have worked on his slight upper body wile waiting for the knee to heal and strengthen. But that shoulder injury had him doing little for the better part of four to six weeks, and then limited training to recoup the shoulder.

The whole discussion is what is best long term for the player. Is it best that he compete with men at this point in his development, or is it better than he finish the season out against his peer group where he's more likely going to be very successful as he tests that repaired shoulder? As someone else said, selfishly I want to see him play this year. But as someone more concerned about the Flames icing a great team for the next decade, I'll be patient and wait to see him at training camp when he's in better shape and fully recovered.

@ Enoch Root

The Flames are not making an a priori decision. They are making a posteriori decision based on all the various injuries they have dealt with and the development they have managed over the years. They also have a wealth of information from their doctors and their hockey people who will probably be telling them similar things to what I have said. The team GM has repeatedly stated that there is nothing wrong with a player spending time in the minors, or in this case juniors, to continue their development. Inserting a junior aged player coming off shoulder surgery into the NHL lineup seems so counter to the philosophy that Treliving has espoused on many occasions.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Ducks winning the conference doesn't matter.

Flames would play within the division unless they finish 8th, and BOTH wild cards are from the Pacific (i.e. the Flames were ahead of the 4th place team in the Central). If that were the case, they would cross over.

This didn't help. How could the Flames finish 8th but both wild card teams come from the Pacific? That is literally impossible.

If the Flames finish in a Wild Card spot, they might crossover. If they finish second or third in the division, they don't. Isn't it as simple as that?

EDIT: Sorry, I was mixed up and meant Central when I said Pacific. I need two coffees this morning, apparently.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

This didn't help. How could the Flames finish 8th but both wild card teams come from the Pacific? That is literally impossible.

If the Flames finish in a Wild Card spot, they might crossover. If they finish second or third in the division, they don't. Isn't it as simple as that?

If they finish 5th in the division, but 8th in the conference (and therefore ahead of the 4th place Central team) they would cross over and compete as the 4th seed in the Central.

The playoff format is divisional now, but a team can cross over if they finish ahead of the 4th place team in the other division.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

This didn't help. How could the Flames finish 8th but both wild card teams come from the Pacific? That is literally impossible.

For instance, if the Jets star goaltender gets injured and they lose most of their games going forward, and the final playoff picturr is:

Ana
Chi
St louis
Nashville
Van
SJS
La
Cgy

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by New Era

last post...

All good points.

The one thing that I think you are closed to, is that he may be ready now (even though he likely wasn't in October).

He may not (maybe even probably not), but waiting to make the decision until he demonstrates the answer one way or the other himself (as opposed to the organization making it now) seems like the more sensible course of action to me.

[Lumby Lager]

Originally Posted by New Era

@ Textcritic

I don't disagree with sending Bennett on a conditioning stint to see how he is. If you check this thread I was very open to that when he started skating, knowing the team would have to make a decision on him. I've been a big proponent of the use of the conditioning stint for all players coming off of the IR. I think it is a great way of getting guys some game time without hurting the big club and the team should use it with much greater frequency.

The problem with Bennett is he has always been behind the other players in maturation and development. That is fully expected since he is about 6-9 months younger than his peers from his draft class. The knock on him has always been his lack of physique. Because he's been away from the game with a shoulder injury that precluded him from doing any sort of training it is pretty easy to say that aspect has not improved. It may have been better for him to have suffered a knee injury than a shoulder injury as he could have worked on his slight upper body wile waiting for the knee to heal and strengthen. But that shoulder injury had him doing little for the better part of four to six weeks, and then limited training to recoup the shoulder.

The whole discussion is what is best long term for the player. Is it best that he compete with men at this point in his development, or is it better than he finish the season out against his peer group where he's more likely going to be very successful as he tests that repaired shoulder? As someone else said, selfishly I want to see him play this year. But as someone more concerned about the Flames icing a great team for the next decade, I'll be patient and wait to see him at training camp when he's in better shape and fully recovered.

@ Enoch Root

The Flames are not making an a priori decision. They are making a posteriori decision based on all the various injuries they have dealt with and the development they have managed over the years. They also have a wealth of information from their doctors and their hockey people who will probably be telling them similar things to what I have said. The team GM has repeatedly stated that there is nothing wrong with a player spending time in the minors, or in this case juniors, to continue their development. Inserting a junior aged player coming off shoulder surgery into the NHL lineup seems so counter to the philosophy that Treliving has espoused on many occasions.

True this is one of his many philosophies, at the end of the day it was stated that he made the team coming out of camp. It stands to reason that Bennett is going to play professional hockey before he plays in the CHL, if he plays in the CHL again.

[Enoch Root]

another philosophy is "always earned..."

[JohnnySkittles]

I'd much rather see him go to the O vs playing any NHL games. Kid hasn't played in months, coming off shoulder surgery, and needs to put on weight to play his game at the NHL level anyways.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If they finish 5th in the division, but 8th in the conference (and therefore ahead of the 4th place Central team) they would cross over and compete as the 4th seed in the Central.

The playoff format is divisional now, but a team can cross over if they finish ahead of the 4th place team in the other division.

I finally grasped what you meant about placing ahead of fourth place in the Central (sorry for being slow on the uptake) - but there isn't really an automatic crossover to the Central like you're talking about. If 5 teams qualify from the Pacific, and three from the Central, the fourth place Pacific team could still "crossover" to play the Central if the Pacific division winner had the best record in the conference.

From the NHL site:

Originally Posted by nhl.com

In the First Round, the division winner with the best record in each conference will be matched against the wild-card team with the lesser record; the wild card team with the better record will play the other division winner.

The teams finishing second and third in each division will meet in the First Round within the bracket headed by their respective division winners. First-round winners within each bracket play one another in the Second Round to determine the four participants in the Conference Finals.

So if the Flames are eighth in the conference and have the worst record of the two wild card teams, and Anaheim wins the conference, Calgary plays Anahem.

[GranteedEV]

My two cents: we have nine free games to see what we have, and give Sam an opportunity to figure out what he needs to tighten up. Pick his first game back carefully - when he's 100% healthy and conditioned let him play. If this is a rebuild season, you don't let our playoff chances override his opportunity to showcase himself nor are we putting pressure on him to carry his line. If he looks lost out there after two to nine games, hey, no problem, give him constructive criticism so that he can focus on playing like a pro in the 'O. If he impresses, make the judgement call based on what seems to be the best environment for his development going forward. That might be dominating lesser competition and focusing on his own individual play, or it might be the NHL playoff race and playoffs. Though from a business perspective, at this point it looks like wasting a year of his NHL contract would have to require some flat out dominant, Gaudreau-level rookie play, and as a center it'd probably mean winning faceoffs to go with that.

[Enoch Root]

^ oh yes, right - I forgot about the division winners defining who matches up. Thanks for that.