Israel lobbying countries to cut funding to Int'l Criminal Court

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I'll never understand this line of reasoning. So we should find the one true important injustice on this earth and we should all be concerned with that. Any concern with "lesser" injustices is an "obsession."

Here's the converse of that argument: As long as larger injustices continue, the world should turn a blind eye to Israelis being killed by mortar attacks.

Does that sound appropriate or respective of human rights and dignity? I don't think so, and no one else should either.

The obsession with Israel takes on a different form. For some reason it's okay for journalists to take put aside their values and purposely report lies, photo-shop pictures, and take a totally non-objective approach. And then there's this bizarre obsession that the world is waking up, and Israel is about to cease existing at any point. Nothing could be further from the truth. Israel has more allies than ever. Half of its enemies no longer exist.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

I agree. However, the issue is racially charged, and it's very easy to slip into either anti-semitic or anti-islamic/arab thought and speech. Clearly Naga Waza is a little quick to jump the gun (obviously), but he does raise a point about why the obsession with Israel exists when much worse is going on in the region and the world.

From your own previous comments:



No.

Zionism is rooted in the Jewish desire for sovereignty, which is a desire shared by almost all people. The Palestinians want their own state. Does that make them "self-righteous". Comments like this totally ignore the way Jews have been persecuted in the Arab and Christian world.

Here's a hint. Typically when you have to justify a comment with "I have a black/gay/Jewish/muslim/etc... friend" you're not off to a good start.

I think you misunderstand my use of righteousness, Zionism grew out of the socialism of the twenties, when I use the term righteous I mean it in the literal sense, Zionist believed they were going to create a righteous world, freedom and equality for all etc. Israel started as a socialist experiment to a large degree, full equality for women, collective farms, collective child rearing.

Much like the US, Israel is rooted in a set of beliefs that more and more, are at odds with what the country actually has become. The gradual domination of the country by profoundly fundamental religious groups, the ill treatment of black African Jews etc. Again much like the US the country has been pushed more and more to a profoundly right wing veiw which doesn't sit well with the mythology of what the country is supposed to be.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

The obsession with Israel takes on a different form. For some reason it's okay for journalists to take put aside their values and purposely report lies, photo-shop pictures, and take a totally non-objective approach. And then there's this bizarre obsession that the world is waking up, and Israel is about to cease existing at any point. Nothing could be further from the truth. Israel has more allies than ever. Half of its enemies no longer exist.

The more media you read from different countries, the more you see this type of behaviour.

When I was young, Turkish media constantly had lies about Greece.

US media now has lies about neighbourhoods in France supposedly being Muslim only zones.

US and UK media perpetuated lies that ended up supporting a war that killed tens of thousands of Iraqis and displaced hundreds of thousands if not a million or more.

Sadly, this stuff is all over the world.

I still think your point questioning why people pay attention to one situation over others is not relevant.

[afc wimbledon]

I think the fact that we are 'allies' with Israel has some bearing here, I'm not going to get into a discussion over the rights and wrongs of N Korea as they are wholly seperate from Canada and the west, I frankly don't expect much from them.
In the case of Israel I question not what they do but why we support them.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think the fact that we are 'allies' with Israel has some bearing here, I'm not going to get into a discussion over the rights and wrongs of N Korea as they are wholly seperate from Canada and the west, I frankly don't expect much from them.
In the case of Israel I question not what they do but why we support them.

That's my take on it too. There's an element of "us and them" about it. I think people are less concerned about what China, Russia, Iran, etc. do because they're "them," and we don't hold them to the same standards we hold "us" to.

[pylon]

FWIW.

I am Jewish, and my stance on the issue is that Israel is an overfunded, over armed, bully in that region of the world. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? Roll over on their backs, and let the Israeli's put a bullet in their head? Because if given the opportunity, Israeli's would, in a heartbeat both literally and figuratively. Half of the Israeli's would line up to pull the trigger, and smile when they did it, the hatred is that deep. Israeli's view Palestinians as sub human garbage, that are less than dogs. And treat them as such. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? Let that happen? Just roll over and die when the world placed the Israeli's in their back yard?

I am not defending the actions of Hamas, they have done some horrid things to. But let's play a little game. As the landlord, I'm gonna come over to your house, with a family you have never met. Then I am going to give them half the house. Eventually though they force you to live in the basement. While they are upstairs enjoying a juicy T-Bone they made in your stainless steel appliances, eating it sitting on your leather sofa, enjoying the Flames game, while you get to sit in the dank basement on a lawn chair, enjoying a can of beans you made on a coleman camp stove listening to the game on transistor radio with a blown speaker. Worse yet, the neighbours have given them the money to build a giant door keeping you out, and supplied them with crate loads of guns to keep you down there. At your disposal you have a flare gun, and a baseball bat.

I don't know about you, but I would be more than willing to die to fight myself out of that situation too, because it beats sitting in a dank basement for the rest of my life.

People have to be able to look at the situation from both sides, and not just look at is as Hamas being "A bunch of crazy Muslims." The anti-Palestinian camp, is just as guilty of being anti-Muslim, as the pro-Palestinian camp is being accused of being Anti-Semetic. They just aren't as vocal about it.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by pylon

FWIW.

I am Jewish, and my stance on the issue is that Israel is an overfunded, over armed, bully in that region of the world. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? Roll over on their backs, and let the Israeli's put a bullet in their head? Because if given the opportunity, Israeli's would, in a heartbeat both literally and figuratively. Half of the Israeli's would line up to pull the trigger, and smile when they did it, the hatred is that deep. Israeli's view Palestinians as sub human garbage, that are less than dogs. And treat them as such. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? Let that happen? Just roll over and die when the world placed the Israeli's in their back yard?

I am not defending the actions of Hamas, they have done some horrid things to. But let's play a little game. As the landlord, I'm gonna come over to your house, with a family you have never met. Then I am going to give them half the house. Eventually though they force you to live in the basement. While they are upstairs enjoying a juicy T-Bone they made in your stainless steel appliances, eating it sitting on your leather sofa, enjoying the Flames game, while you get to sit in the dank basement on a lawn chair, enjoying a can of beans you made on a coleman camp stove listening to the game on transistor radio with a blown speaker. Worse yet, the neighbours have given them the money to build a giant door keeping you out, and supplied them with crate loads of guns to keep you down there. At your disposal you have a flare gun, and a baseball bat.

I don't know about you, but I would be more than willing to die to fight myself out of that situation too, because it beats sitting in a dank basement for the rest of my life.

People have to be able to look at the situation from both sides, and not just look at is as Hamas being "A bunch of crazy Muslims." The anti-Palestinian camp, is just as guilty of being anti-Muslim, as the pro-Palestinian camp is being accused of being Anti-Semetic. They just aren't as vocal about it.

Interesting...I have been over several times and know many Israelis and not one of them thinks that way. They are as sick of the violence as we are. Probably even more so as they live with the threat every day.

When was the last time you were over and where did you stay Pylon? We've stayed in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and Bet Herut moshav mostly so have experienced a wide variety of the country. We've gone to concerts, weddings, museums, and experienced none of the hatred you speak of. The "in-laws" even took us to a popular restaurant they heard about in Haifa that happened to be Palestinian. No one recoiled in disgust.

From what I saw, most Israelis hate the Hats(hardline ultra orthodox Jews) as much as they hate Hamas and their ilk.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Interesting...I have been over several times and know many Israelis and not one of them thinks that way. They are as sick of the violence as we are. Probably even more so as they live with the threat every day.

When was the last time you were over and where did you stay Pylon? We've stayed in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and Bet Herut moshav mostly so have experienced a wide variety of the country. We've gone to concerts, weddings, museums, and experienced none of the hatred you speak of. The "in-laws" even took us to a popular restaurant they heard about in Haifa that happened to be Palestinian. No one recoiled in disgust.

From what I saw, most Israelis hate the Hats(hardline ultra orthodox Jews) as much as they hate Hamas and their ilk.

I have never been to Israel. Maybe I am basing a lot of what I have heard through relatives, and of course the media.

But I honestly have to remove myself from the room when my Jewish relatives start going off about Palestinians. Firstly, half of them have never been to the region, but they talk about it like they are some sort of victims sitting in their house in Pump Hill. And the hatred they spew is pretty disgusting.

Again, back to my analogy. The Jews were basically forced upon the people in that region, and I can empathize as to why they are so pissed. But ultimately, I have no side to take in the whole thing, as both sides are acting like ass hats. And it again boils down to the absolute stupidity of religion. Almost all of the violence in the conflict is based on Jews hating Muslims, and vice versa. Take that out of the equation, and they could probably find peace. As there are people of all religions on both sides of the territorial debate.

[Tinordi]

^^ Self hating Jew amirite Nage Waza?

[Itse]

Somewhat tangential, but I thought this was an interesting piece by "The National Bureau of the French Jewish Union for Peace".

http://www.truth-out.org/speakout/it...jews-of-france

There's a lot there, sorry I don't have time right now to find a good quote to describe the text.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Interesting...I have been over several times and know many Israelis and not one of them thinks that way. They are as sick of the violence as we are. Probably even more so as they live with the threat every day.

When was the last time you were over and where did you stay Pylon? We've stayed in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and Bet Herut moshav mostly so have experienced a wide variety of the country. We've gone to concerts, weddings, museums, and experienced none of the hatred you speak of. The "in-laws" even took us to a popular restaurant they heard about in Haifa that happened to be Palestinian. No one recoiled in disgust.

From what I saw, most Israelis hate the Hats(hardline ultra orthodox Jews) as much as they hate Hamas and their ilk.

Any time you get into the mind of a group of people and decide the way they all think, you are generalizing. It's pretty simple.

I'm sure there are a lot of Israelis who hate Arabs. They are in the middle of an ethnic war. There are plenty of Palestinians who make some pretty hateful comments about Israelis and Jews too.

That being said, I'm also sure there are plenty of people on both sides who've had enough.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think you misunderstand my use of righteousness, Zionism grew out of the socialism of the twenties, when I use the term righteous I mean it in the literal sense, Zionist believed they were going to create a righteous world, freedom and equality for all etc. Israel started as a socialist experiment to a large degree, full equality for women, collective farms, collective child rearing.

Much like the US, Israel is rooted in a set of beliefs that more and more, are at odds with what the country actually has become. The gradual domination of the country by profoundly fundamental religious groups, the ill treatment of black African Jews etc. Again much like the US the country has been pushed more and more to a profoundly right wing veiw which doesn't sit well with the mythology of what the country is supposed to be.

No.

The history of Zionism goes back as far as the Jewish people. Jews established States in what is now Israel in the 100s, the 900s, and the 1600s. The states were crushed by nearby armies.

The kibbutz which was a large part of the most recent attempt to establish a Jewish state is based on socialist models. Also Israel does not mistreat blacks. What you thinking of is the recent conflicts with illegal migrants. There is not a country in the world that lets unlimited amounts of illegal migrants in. Several thousand die getting into Europe every year.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by blankall

No.

The history of Zionism goes back as far as the Jewish people. Jews established States in what is now Israel in the 100s, the 900s, and the 1600s. The states were crushed by nearby armies.

This is a severely anachronistic reading.

The concept of zionism was born in the late 19th century. Seeing previous jewish states as parts of the same tradition is creating a retroactive continuity which probably does not describe previous events sensibly.

The whole concept of "state" as people generally use the word today is relatively new, born along with nationalism in the 18th century. It only became the dominant way of thinking in the early 20th century.

(For example as late as WWI many Italian soldiers had a very poor understanding of what "Italy" means. Many of them thought it meant the frontline.)

TLDR: Please do not talk of "zionist states" in times before the birth of "zionism" and "state".

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Itse

This is a severely anachronistic reading.

The concept of zionism was born in the late 19th century. Seeing previous jewish states as parts of the same tradition is creating a retroactive continuity which probably does not describe previous events sensibly.

The whole concept of "state" as people generally use the word today is relatively new, born along with nationalism in the 18th century. It only became the dominant way of thinking in the early 20th century.

(For example as late as WWI many Italian soldiers had a very poor understanding of what "Italy" means. Many of them thought it meant the frontline.)

You can argue that the concept of state is new, and I'd agree. Most modern European states (Italy, Greece, Germany, etc..) weren't formed until the 19th century or later, when empires collapsed and regional states amalgamated.

Zionism has more to do with the desire to live under Jewish rule than any specific political structure. This is not a new concept. The only difference is that this time, they managed to pull it off and it stuck.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by blankall

Zionism has more to do with the desire to live under Jewish rule than any specific political structure. This is not a new concept. The only difference is that this time, they managed to pull it off and it stuck.

So this is similar to conservative Muslims who wish to see the return of the caliphate? what country or countries should the UN carve a huge swath of land from to establish the Muslim caliphate?

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by pylon

I have never been to Israel. Maybe I am basing a lot of what I have heard through relatives, and of course the media.

But I honestly have to remove myself from the room when my Jewish relatives start going off about Palestinians. Firstly, half of them have never been to the region, but they talk about it like they are some sort of victims sitting in their house in Pump Hill. And the hatred they spew is pretty disgusting.

Again, back to my analogy. The Jews were basically forced upon the people in that region, and I can empathize as to why they are so pissed. But ultimately, I have no side to take in the whole thing, as both sides are acting like ass hats. And it again boils down to the absolute stupidity of religion. Almost all of the violence in the conflict is based on Jews hating Muslims, and vice versa. Take that out of the equation, and they could probably find peace. As there are people of all religions on both sides of the territorial debate.

Ah, North American Jews. They are a whole different thing altogether imo. That is pretty bad, if they've never been there and have nothing to base it on. Just be careful as you are bordering on doing the same thing with Israelis. I like you as a poster Pylon, but don't let a handful of a-holes(sorry, I know they're relatives) living in N.A. colour you're opinion of Israel. Apples and oranges really.

You're right about the religious aspect though. Probably the reason we haven't encountered the animosity towards Palestinians is the people we know there aren't overly religious.

[Language]

Originally Posted by pylon

FWIW.

I am Jewish, and my stance on the issue is that Israel is an overfunded, over armed, bully in that region of the world. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? Roll over on their backs, and let the Israeli's put a bullet in their head? Because if given the opportunity, Israeli's would, in a heartbeat both literally and figuratively. Half of the Israeli's would line up to pull the trigger, and smile when they did it, the hatred is that deep. Israeli's view Palestinians as sub human garbage, that are less than dogs. And treat them as such. What are the Palestinians supposed to do? Let that happen? Just roll over and die when the world placed the Israeli's in their back yard?

I am not defending the actions of Hamas, they have done some horrid things to. But let's play a little game. As the landlord, I'm gonna come over to your house, with a family you have never met. Then I am going to give them half the house. Eventually though they force you to live in the basement. While they are upstairs enjoying a juicy T-Bone they made in your stainless steel appliances, eating it sitting on your leather sofa, enjoying the Flames game, while you get to sit in the dank basement on a lawn chair, enjoying a can of beans you made on a coleman camp stove listening to the game on transistor radio with a blown speaker. Worse yet, the neighbours have given them the money to build a giant door keeping you out, and supplied them with crate loads of guns to keep you down there. At your disposal you have a flare gun, and a baseball bat.

I don't know about you, but I would be more than willing to die to fight myself out of that situation too, because it beats sitting in a dank basement for the rest of my life.

People have to be able to look at the situation from both sides, and not just look at is as Hamas being "A bunch of crazy Muslims." The anti-Palestinian camp, is just as guilty of being anti-Muslim, as the pro-Palestinian camp is being accused of being Anti-Semetic. They just aren't as vocal about it.

So you, by your own admission, have never stepped foot in Israel, yet proclaim such a baseless and inflammatory statement? And from a Jew yourself? Now I've seen it all.

As a Jew who has been to Israel many times, I can tell you that is the furthest, furthest thing from the truth.

Your comparison of the conflict over there to a landlord situation is so far off base I won't even begin to discuss it. The whole conflict and its origins (Palestinians will say Jews invaded their homeland, historians will say there never was a Palestine, etc.) is an entirely contentious point. That's what makes this entire prolonged conflict a never ending saga. You cannot simply start this debate from a point in time (ex. 1948), as the history lines date back hundreds of years, and each side will point to a particular moment as when "#### got real".

I'm not going to venture into this debate (it's fruitless as has been noted through the multitude of Israel threads in the past), but your comments are very simplistic. And your comment about every Jew wanting to put a bullet in the head of a Palestinian is just asinine.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by New Era

So this is similar to conservative Muslims who wish to see the return of the caliphate? what country or countries should the UN carve a huge swath of land from to establish the Muslim caliphate?

No. By Jewish rule, I don't mean a Religious rule. Most Jews in Israel are not very religious. There is a lot more to being Jewish than religion. A closer analogy would be Arab.

The Arabs already have many countries. In fact the land which was historically home to many different ethnicities is now under almost exclusively Arab rule.

That being said I understand the desire for Palestinians for their own rule. They did not however have a country that was carved up. The area, which the Jews have a long heritage in, was formerly part of the Ottoman empire. Jews similarly were forced out of various parts of the Ottoman empire.

Israel is also not a huge swath of land. It's tiny and a fraction of the size of the land Jews owned in the old Ottoman empire.

[Flash Walken]

What does any of this have to do with Israel pressuring countries to defund the ICC so that the ICC won't investigate war crimes in Gaza?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by blankall

No. By Jewish rule, I don't mean a Religious rule. Most Jews in Israel are not very religious. There is a lot more to being Jewish than religion. A closer analogy would be Arab.

The Arabs already have many countries. In fact the land which was historically home to many different ethnicities is now under almost exclusively Arab rule.

That being said I understand the desire for Palestinians for their own rule. They did not however have a country that was carved up. The area, which the Jews have a long heritage in, was formerly part of the Ottoman empire. Jews similarly were forced out of various parts of the Ottoman empire.

Israel is also not a huge swath of land. It's tiny and a fraction of the size of the land Jews owned in the old Ottoman empire.

It's overly simplistic to assume that the many different ethnicities that lived in the Middle East have all vanished and a unified "Arab" rule now occupies all 22 countries.

That's kind of the crux of the whole Palestine/Israel debate and for some reason is extremely difficult for Westerners to understand.