Toronto is no good

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by OzSome

I got the feeling that Dion Phaneuf will lost his captaincy between now and the beginning of the next season.

This team is uncoachable. You bring a soft coach and the players will be all over him because they know they can get away with a lot of stuff. You bring in a tough coach (Carlyle) and some of the star player will start pouting and eventually will lose the attention of the whole team. Players are not the only problem in this team. Management, media and the fans are also a problem one way or another. Media and fans will always question the coaches decision then management will try to please them... blah, blah, blah..

Yet a new coach comes in and simply changes the "System" and in the first 2 games the main issues are gone.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

And they traded him for draft picks. And most pundits agree that Boston won the deal. That is despite Boston turning around and trading away the primary player drafted with the picks acquired from TO in a bad trade with Dallas.

Boston were also a much better team without him. You can't argue with the results post trade.

Hmm...

Not true. The last year they had Kessel they were 2nd overall in GF in the NHL. The next season, they were dead last in GF. They did miss him.

The big difference is the cup. But they would have won that with Kessel. Tim Thomas was by far the #1 reason they won it.

[dino7c]

Dion is a decent player...he is just vastly overpaid which hurts the team

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Dion is a decent player...he is just vastly overpaid which hurts the team

He would have gotten 7 million as a UFA.

I hear people say he's a 4-5 million D-Man. I find that funny.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

He would have gotten 7 million as a UFA.

I hear people say he's a 4-5 million D-Man. I find that funny.

what he would have gotten and what he is worth are two different things

Leafs are up against the cap with a mediocre team, how do you suggest they improve?

somebody would have gave him a big deal sure, then they would be in the same boat...not many UFA deals work out

[Red John]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Phaneuf stopped doing what got him to where he is. So while he's okay, he's not okay for the price he's being paid.

He was much better in his first 2-3 years in Calgary where he was very physical and intimidated the opposition. Calgary could use a big defender that hammers people right now, actually. But I wouldn't want that ego in this city, as he strikes me as a guy who thinks he's above everyone else, nor that hideous contract.

Truth is, he was actually being sheltered in Calgary those first few years and it made him look a bit better. Phaneuf has never done well when facing top competition plus when he plays too many minutes he ends up pacing himself and not playing full out which is a death knell for a guy who was never a great skater to start with. Guy can't even do a crossover.

The other thing is injuries. Guy's mobility has sucked ever since the chronic hip problems and hasn't been the same.

Throw in the fact that he isn't a great character guy and you have what you have - a second-pairing guy whose greatest asset (his physical play) is something he doesn't utilize anymore. And he's being paid as a top d-man.

Kessel's issues are even more obvious and it's been said for years and still is true. Phaneuf and Kessel aren't terrible players. They just are the wrong players to build around.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Dion has always been an enigma. He started off with a blast in the NHL - was behind only Orr and Coffey for the most goals scored as a defencemen to start his career after 2(? can't remember if 2 or 3 seasons). He looked like a can't miss surefire future multiple Norris award winner. For those saying that Calgary screwed up in picking him, go back to his first season, and then his second, and then his third. Look at how good he seemed to be, and how fans of other teams were re-ranking him often at the #2 spot right behind Staal, with some fans even ranking Phaneuf ahead of Staal.

So, what happened to him?

Character issues, injuries, Mike Keenan and a lack of a tool box.

Character issues: We know these well. No need to go there.
Injuries: As Red John pointed out, his hip.
Keenan: "Semi-Retired Iron Mike Keenan" looked at how much players got paid, and their minutes were used accordingly. One can argue that Dion 'earned' those minutes with how well he started his career, but he was careless defensively and didn't much care to fix it (Warrener interview). Keenan never forced him to do better. Development stalled.
Toolbox: He has ALL the tools you want in a defencemen - great shot, decent passing ability, physical, decent skater, etc., etc.,

What is Dion now? A guy who gets a decent amount of success. A guy who will put up points. A guy who not only looks like a top-pairing defencemen, but IS a top pairing defencemen by all metrics.

What makes people question how good he is, is in fact the toolbox. ALL top defencemen make mistakes. Doughty. Weber. Giordano. Heck, you can find a lot of youtube videos with guys like Lidstrom getting embarrassed at times. It happens. It just seems to happen more often with Phaneuf. It makes him look unreliable, and for the most part, he is. I wouldn't want him on the ice protecting a 1 goal lead at the end of the game. In my opinion, if my #1 guy can't be trusted to be on the ice at the end of a game, he isn't a top-pairing defencemen.

Statistically, he IS a #1 defencemen by almost any measure. I just wouldn't want him to be the Flames #1 defencemen, as he makes the most boneheaded mistakes way too often. He seems to make worse mistakes more often than other top-pairing defencmen. Thus the constant arguments about him on this forum and other forums. If he was just as steady defensively as a Doughty, or a Weber, then there wouldn't be these long discussions about Phaneuf. All I know is that I would rather have Giordano and Brodie on the top pair in Calgary, and I wouldn't want Phaneuf on the other two pairings simply because of his perceived character issues.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

He would have gotten 7 million as a UFA.

I hear people say he's a 4-5 million D-Man. I find that funny.

It is also well known that teams vastly overpay for free agents. The fact that someone might have been stupid enough to give Phaneuf that money doesn't change the player that he is.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It is also well known that teams vastly overpay for free agents. The fact that someone might have been stupid enough to give Phaneuf that money doesn't change the player that he is.

But that is the market. Brooks Orpik got 5.5 the exact same day Dion was scheduled to be UFA.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

But that is the market. Brooks Orpik got 5.5 the exact same day Dion was scheduled to be UFA.

That is the UFA market. Teams generally overpay in cash for big-name UFAs, because that is the only way to acquire a name player without giving up other assets. More often than not, they get themselves into cap trouble when other contracts come up for renewal.

I mean, it’s great for Brooks Orpik that he held the Caps to ransom for $5.5 million. But you can’t tell me they are getting value for their money. They’ll have a long, long time to regret that contract between now and 2019.

Contending teams don’t pay $7 million for a guy like Phaneuf. A losing team might, because he’s the best player they can get and they have to spend the money on something.

The guy is not good enough defensively to eat up the big minutes against top opposition. If you put him in that role, your defensive numbers go south – as the Leafs have shown. A winning team needs better all-round players than Phaneuf on the top pairing; and a winning team can’t afford $7 million in cap space for a #3 D.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

That is the UFA market. Teams generally overpay in cash for big-name UFAs, because that is the only way to acquire a name player without giving up other assets. More often than not, they get themselves into cap trouble when other contracts come up for renewal.

I mean, it’s great for Brooks Orpik that he held the Caps to ransom for $5.5 million. But you can’t tell me they are getting value for their money. They’ll have a long, long time to regret that contract between now and 2019.

Contending teams don’t pay $7 million for a guy like Phaneuf. A losing team might, because he’s the best player they can get and they have to spend the money on something.

The guy is not good enough defensively to eat up the big minutes against top opposition. If you put him in that role, your defensive numbers go south – as the Leafs have shown. A winning team needs better all-round players than Phaneuf on the top pairing; and a winning team can’t afford $7 million in cap space for a #3 D.

Phaneuf is easily as good as 7 million man Kris Letang. And Chicago had 7.1 million man Brian Campbell.

Phaneuf is not a #3 D-Man. Ridiculous. If he was, his numbers would not be as good as they have been the last decade.

Dion Phaneuf would walk in on Anaheim, the team with the best NHL record and be their #1 guy.

And it's looking like Toronto's defensive numbers was a coaching issue.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Dion Phaneuf would walk in on Anaheim, the team with the best NHL record and be their #1 guy.

I'd take both Fowler and Lindholm right now over what Dion brings, not counting that they're getting better while Dion is not.

And Nashville is now the #1 team in the league and I'd easily take all of Weber, Jones and Josi over Dion.

I don't dislike Phaneuf, but he's not a top 30 defenseman any more. He's likely on the lower end of the top 60, although I haven't actually compiled a list.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I'd take both Fowler and Lindholm right now over what Dion brings, not counting that they're getting better while Dion is not.

And Nashville is now the #1 team in the league and I'd easily take all of Weber, Jones and Josi over Dion.

I don't dislike Phaneuf, but he's not a top 30 defenseman any more. He's likely on the lower end of the top 60, although I haven't actually compiled a list.

Yet all the stats says he is.

You may take Fowler and Lindholm over him, but that doesn't make them better.

Anaheim's big weakness despite the record is they do not have a #1 D-Man.

*Maybe* top 60. LOL.

[JJ1532]

Which stats out of interest?

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Meh, Phil Kessel is a slightly older version of Taylor Hall.

Dion Phaneuf would make an excellent #2 defenceman, but he's being deployed and leaned on like he's Shea Weber.

He can't go throwing around devastating hits and junping into the rush like he used to, because he knows he's going to have to kill every penalty, play 26 minutes, provide a physical presence, and be expected to produce on every power play. He is a very valuable player, and he can do all of those things, but he's not good enough to do all of them at the same time, night after night, all game, every game.

If Phaneuf was playing 20-ish minutes, and not getting buried so badly (ie the most badly buried player in the entire NHL last year IIRC) he'd look a LOT better.

But Toronto doesn't have anyone else who can even pretend to carry a top pairing.

Because Toronto is no good.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

But that is the market. Brooks Orpik got 5.5 the exact same day Dion was scheduled to be UFA.

I really dislike repeating myself, so read and understand it this time:

It is also well known that teams vastly overpay for free agents. The fact that someone might have been stupid enough to give Phaneuf that money doesn't change the player that he is.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I really dislike repeating myself, so read and understand it this time:

It is also well known that teams vastly overpay for free agents. The fact that someone might have been stupid enough to give Phaneuf that money doesn't change the player that he is.

I'm not understanding that argument. Brooks Orpik got market value. Good mid-pairing guys are getting 5 million before they hit UFA status.

This "All UFA's are Overpaid" is horsebleep. It's the market.

[Resolute 14]

Frankly, I think you have trouble understanding the solution to "what is one plus one" so I find your first sentence optimistic.

Given that, I will spell it out for you: The fact that teams might have overpaid for Phaneuf does not make him a top pair defenceman, except on a team lacking anything better. Phaneuf, like most of Toronto's roster, has significant flaws to his game that leaves him in the good-not-great category.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

Yet all the stats says he is.

You may take Fowler and Lindholm over him, but that doesn't make them better.

Anaheim's big weakness despite the record is they do not have a #1 D-Man.

*Maybe* top 60. LOL.

Fowler has 3 fewer points, and Lindholm 6. Anaheim has also scored 21 fewer goals (about 1/6th of their current total) so there has been less opportunity to generate points especially assists. Both Ducks have more goals than Dion.

Fowler doesn't have a single PIM this year (Dion does take some dumb penalties) and both are a lot better defensively and play only about 1:30 fewer minutes per game.

The Ducks could use a #1 D-man, but Dion ain't one.

I'd have Dion rated around 45-50 or so, with some guys that are inferior offensively ahead of him. He is that bad defensively. (Insert counter argument about +/-). The only two D-men that have more points than him that I would take Dion over are Vatanen and Green, and Vatanen is only because he is a rookie and an unknown quantity longer term.

[GioforPM]

I'd take either Letang or Campbell over Phaneuf. Campbell is underrated IMO. He's done well away from Chicago. Phaneuf would be an OK number 4 in Calgary.