Gun attack on French magazine Charlie Hebdo kills 11

[nik-]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

In answer to your question, yes I do think killing children is worse than killing adults, and I'm not trying to rank the tragedies, in fact my point is not that Edmonton was worse but that they are the same, and that it makes no sense that we react to Paris differently to Edmonton.

Of course it does, because there are factors outside of body count which make people react differently to different situations.

You're smart enough to know that.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

Does it make a difference if they are targeting Islam vs extremism and whether it is intentional or not? They have the right to do any of these in a free society. And now this publication will gain an incredible number of viewers because of this.

I think it does matter what they are targeting, pretty sure hate speech is not protected under freedom of speech. When you lump all those covers together it sure starts to look like some form of racial targeting.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by speede5

I think it does matter what they are targeting, pretty sure hate speech is not protected under freedom of speech. When you lump all those covers together it sure starts to look like some form of racial targeting.

They're pretty much equal opportunity satirists.

they've taken a lot of potshots at the pope and various political figures.

I think we need to separate the term hate speech from the term criticisms.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

Of course it does, because there are factors outside of body count which make people react differently to different situations.

You're smart enough to know that.

Well I realize that we get wound up by the press, but that's pretty much my point, we are reacting differently to this and we should be asking ourselves why, and, more to the point, realizing that the most destructive thing is not the killing but our reaction to them.

Who did more harm to the US in the end, 9/11 or the Americans themselves in their reaction to it as an event?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Well I realize that we get wound up by the press, but that's pretty much my point, we are reacting differently to this and we should be asking ourselves why, and, more to the point, realizing that the most destructive thing is not the killing but our reaction to them.

Who did more harm to the US in the end, 9/11 or the Americans themselves in their reaction to it as an event?

We should only be asking why we react differently if we have zero understanding of human behaviour. Since we don't, we don't ask why.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

We should only be asking why we react differently if we have zero understanding of human behaviour. Since we don't, we don't ask why.

That makes no sense, your suggesting we blindly follow whatever agenda is served to us by the press and government without questioning why?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

That makes no sense, your suggesting we blindly follow whatever agenda is served to us by the press and government without questioning why?

haha what?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

haha what?

The press labels an act 'terrorism' and we collectively consent to the abrogation of our freedom in order to 'protect' our way of life. Press labels it a bank robbery or just a random disgruntled employee and we accept it is an unfortunate fact of life.

[nik-]

Who's consenting to the abrogation of our freedom?

One poster said things should be tougher and then a bunch of people disagreed.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by speede5

I think it does matter what they are targeting, pretty sure hate speech is not protected under freedom of speech. When you lump all those covers together it sure starts to look like some form of racial targeting.

The funny thing is that before the attack, many people (religious and secular thinking people) were criticizing Charlie Hebdo for printing racist, xenophobic, homophobic and sexist cartoons. From what I read, they are a publication already popular in France's xenophobic anti-immigration community. Now that they were attacked, they seem to be beyond criticism. To be fair, they are equal opportunity offenders, but the anti-Islam angle is what has been driving their fanbase and making them money lately.

Making something racist and slapping the "satire" label on it might be something people are free to do, but it doesn't make it worthy of praise and respect, or any less racist.

I guess it is somewhat ironic that the Muslim extremists essentially martyred what they hate. Too bad the material is just going to become more popular now though.


Sort of OT:

Apparently the issue the past week was a plug for Michel Houellebecq, a French author often associated with France's anti-immigration right wing groups. He has a new book coming out where plot revolves around the dangers of France one day electing a Muslim president in order to counter the surging right wing Front National movement.

This week's issue has on its cover a cartoon about Submission, the controversial new novel by Michel Houellebecq.

The plot is simple: just a few years down the road France elects a Muslim president in a bid to block the far-right, anti-immigration Front National from taking power.


Critics have lambasted the book for offering intellectual underpinning to a nightmare scenario often mentioned by the Front National itself. It's a gift, one said, to Front National Leader Marine Le Pen.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/france-...page-1.2893262

For those that don't know, the Front National is basically a fascist nationalist party in France. The current leader is a documented Holocaust denier and believes immigrants are "mortal threat to France".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France)


Incidentally, the party is also using this tragedy to push their agenda on the death penalty:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...y-9965607.html

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Well I realize that we get wound up by the press, but that's pretty much my point, we are reacting differently to this and we should be asking ourselves why, and, more to the point, realizing that the most destructive thing is not the killing but our reaction to them.

Who did more harm to the US in the end, 9/11 or the Americans themselves in their reaction to it as an event?

Why are we reacting differently? Because in Edmonton you had one man who went on a rampage against people he knew personally for personal reasons. In Paris you have a number of men who have decided to limit the free speech of others. I'm not worried about guy in Edmonton because I'm not related to him. It makes me look more closely at what my family could be capable of though.

I react differently to the Paris shootings because some whackjob could do this at my place of work. The gunmen did not personally know their victims. The gunmen took offense to something they said and killed for it. Should I have to watch what I say now to ensure this doesn't happen to me?

[edslunch]

"What can men do against such reckless hate?"

[TorqueDog]

I wish I could embed, but this is a good one.

BBC Daily Politics & Sunday Politics
Reaction to the fatal shootings in Paris with Douglas Murray, from the Henry Jackson Society, and by Maajid Nawaz from the counter-extremism think-tank the Quilliam Foundation, who received death threats for tweeting a cartoon of Mohammed and Jesus last year.

They spoke to Andrew Neil on Thursday's Daily Politics, along with the former diplomat and chief of staff to Tony Blair Jonathan Powell after Jo Coburn went back over the events in the last 24 hours.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1051109638239227

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by edslunch

"What can men do against such reckless hate?"

Attack Mordor?

[Ducay]

Back on topic. Intensive search near Longpont in the areas surrounding where the brothers robbed a gas station this morning. (NE of Paris, near-ish) Rheims where they were living.

Residents have been advised to stay indoors and to not open doors for anyone but police.

Helicopters and police dogs all over the area.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by speede5

I think it does matter what they are targeting, pretty sure hate speech is not protected under freedom of speech. When you lump all those covers together it sure starts to look like some form of racial targeting.

As noted, they appear to be equal-opportunity satirists. This, in fact, is their current Twitter profile image. NSFW, partially for easily offended Christians:

NSFW!

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

That makes no sense, your suggesting we blindly follow whatever agenda is served to us by the press and government without questioning why?

And you are suggesting that we blindly dismiss whatever "agenda" is "served" to us by the press and government.

As Firefly notes, what happened in Edmonton was an attack on a family. A considerable tragedy, and one that should not be trivialized. But there is no political motive, no ongoing threat to consider. What happened in Paris was not only a considerable tragedy, but a direct assault on the very rights and freedoms that we hold dear.

It is, of course, ironic that the attackers have pretty much engineered the greatest Streisand Effect since Barbara Streisand herself. The magazine is now world known, it's satirization of Islam is now world known, it has companies like Google donating money to ensure its survival and the planned 1 million copy print run for their next issue is almost certainly going to sell out.

These cowards attacked free speech, and we are seeing free speech respond. That is good. It is unfortunate that this attack will also carry an increase in hate speech (which speaks partially to what FlamesAddiction was talking about), but the proper response to that is more speech.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Back on topic. Intensive search near Longpont in the areas surrounding where the brothers robbed a gas station this morning. (NE of Paris, near-ish) Rheims where they were living.

Residents have been advised to stay indoors and to not open doors for anyone but police.

Helicopters and police dogs all over the area.

It's kind of odd that they haven't been caught yet. I read one news story that said at one point they were casually saying hello to bystanders and gloating about what they did. They seem to have a bit a Robin Hood complex in their own twisted sense.

[combustiblefuel]

The following link is to the BBC . It includes some very hard to watch videos in the article.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30710883

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's kind of odd that they haven't been caught yet. I read one news story that said at one point they were casually saying hello to bystanders and gloating about what they did. They seem to have a bit a Robin Hood complex in their own twisted sense.

One man has surrendered.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/07/eu...azine-gunfire/