Does Sven have a future with the Flames?

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Jooris started out with limited time, just like Sven, on the bottom line, just like Sven. The reason his ice time increased is because he succeeded in making Hartley trust him. He did this after being benched and seeing his ice time actually drop. He's also been benched more than Sven, so his actual ice time while being up here is less. Also, he brings more to the table than scoring, as do Granlund and Johnny. If Sven learned how to check or forecheck or kill penalties, he'd be much more useful.

False.

Jooris played on a line with Monahan and Hudler and had 15:29 in ice time in his first game.

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Do you really think that Jooris was given anything? They had him scheduled to play 1 pre-season game and send him right down to the AHL. He went balls to the wall for the rookie camp and pre-season and was still sent down. Then he came up and earned a shot by producing.

Gaudreau is a special talent so he got ice time and it worked out.

Granlund is a centre and every centre besides Monahan was hurt so he got ice time.

Sven has to do something to move up in the line-up. He hasn't produced in the AHL much in the past two years. He didn't produce in the pre-season and he had 3 points in 14 games with the Flames. He has to earn it if he wants top 6 ice time.

I was responding to the guy who said Jooris, Gaudreau and Granlund all had to work their way from the 4th line. Anybody that has watched the games would know it simply isn't true. Sven was never given the ice or the linemates that the other three were.

Sven had 3 points in 2 games with the avg ice of 10 mins in those games. The following game he was given 7 minutes. Hard to earn more ice when you are never given more ice after you actually do produce.

I am not saying Jooris, Granlund and Johnny didn't deserve anything, because they certainly did. I am saying you cannot use those three cases in comparison to what Sven did or didn't do. Those guys were all put in a position to succeed, where Baertschi has only had 4th line minutes and linemates.

Sven will be a top 6 player, or he won't be in the NHL. The thing I am saying is he never got one chance to play in the top 6, so how is he supposed to succeed in his call up? Setoguchi was given top 6 and PP time over and over again. He failed and was sent down. Sven was never afforded the same.

[Ashasx]

nm

[heep223]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Sven will be a top 6 player, or he won't be in the NHL. The thing I am saying is he never got one chance to play in the top 6, so how is he supposed to succeed in his call up?

So, if we assume that what you're saying is true and that Sven never got a shot in the top 6, do you think there's some sort of conspiracy against him? Or do you think that Hartley's assessment of hockey ability is poor?

Why can't people just accept the fact that the coaching staff has been assessing Sven and they are not satisfied with his ability to play with 100% alignment to the system they've designed. They clearly don't trust something about his game and they don't want him to be a 1 dimensional player. So they are teaching him, coaching him and he's learning how to play the 200ft system in the minors.

Why is this such a big deal - do you not trust Hartley and our coaching staff? It seems like they've been pretty true to their words thus far. If you don't trust them and think they have it in for Sven for some reason that's unrelated to his play, then that's a different story.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

False.

Jooris played on a line with Monahan and Hudler and had 15:29 in ice time in his first game.

I was responding to the guy who said Jooris, Gaudreau and Granlund all had to work their way from the 4th line. Anybody that has watched the games would know it simply isn't true. Sven was never given the ice or the linemates that the other three were.

Sven had 3 points in 2 games with the avg ice of 10 mins in those games. The following game he was given 7 minutes. Hard to earn more ice when you are never given more ice after you actually do produce.

I am not saying Jooris, Granlund and Johnny didn't deserve anything, because they certainly did. I am saying you cannot use those three cases in comparison to what Sven did or didn't do. Those guys were all put in a position to succeed, where Baertschi has only had 4th line minutes and linemates.

Sven will be a top 6 player, or he won't be in the NHL. The thing I am saying is he never got one chance to play in the top 6, so how is he supposed to succeed in his call up? Setoguchi was given top 6 and PP time over and over again. He failed and was sent down. Sven was never afforded the same.

Jooris may have played with those guys his first game, but he didn't do well in the next few games - he was then demoted to the 4th line, give away less minutes, and ultimately benched. It was only after this that he became a more consistent guy with bigger minutes, and recently he has been given less and benched again.

If you watch you will notice that Hartley gives ice time on the basis of in-game performance - not what happened the last game. So Sven got more time in the game he played well, and his ice time was less the next game because he didn't continue it. I also believe Hartley gives time and assignments based on practice performance. Maybe Sven isn't a good practice player.

You also have to understand that Jooris was to be thje first call-up because his performance in training camp. Ferland and Granlund were next because of how they were doing in Addy (at a time when Sven was not doing well there). So their AHL performance instructed Hartley on what to expect and where to put him.

Finally, Setguchi was not a top 6 guy - he mostly played with Sven. he was gievn PP time because he's a right handed RW who will go to the net. There weren't many other options at the time. Plus, he's a 30 goal man in the NHL, so he was obviously given some time to see if he could regain the form. That's not the case with Sven, who hasn't done anything to earn benefit of the doubt points yet.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If you watch you will notice that Hartley gives ice time on the basis of in-game performance - not what happened the last game. So Sven got more time in the game he played well, and his ice time was less the next game because he didn't continue it.

This is ridiculous. He didn't continue it because he was only given 7 minutes of ice time. In his 14 games with the Flames this season, he had a grand total of 2:01 of powerplay time (and 70% of that came from one game).

He was never put in a position to succeed like the other players were.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by heep223

So, if we assume that what you're saying is true and that Sven never got a shot in the top 6, do you think there's some sort of conspiracy against him? Or do you think that Hartley's assessment of hockey ability is poor?

Why can't people just accept the fact that the coaching staff has been assessing Sven and they are not satisfied with his ability to play with 100% alignment to the system they've designed. They clearly don't trust something about his game and they don't want him to be a 1 dimensional player. So they are teaching him, coaching him and he's learning how to play the 200ft system in the minors.

Why is this such a big deal - do you not trust Hartley and our coaching staff? It seems like they've been pretty true to their words thus far. If you don't trust them and think they have it in for Sven for some reason that's unrelated to his play, then that's a different story.

This is a false dichotomy. I trust Hartley and the coaching staff with developing players in general. Gaudreau, Monahan, Jooris, Granlund, and even Brodie to some extent show this. But that doesn't mean necessarily that they've given Sven a fair shake. I realize that there's an evidentiary burden here to show that Sven has been singled out, and that he has been singled out for reasons that aren't necessarily his fault, or has been unduly punished for relatively minor offences, or that he continues to be punished for past behavior that should be left in the past. But I do think there is some evidence of this.

I think it's kind of like first child syndrome. Expectations for Sven are higher, so he has to do more than other people to meet muster. They want him to be great, not good, and I support that. But I also wonder if, in so wanting, they aren't allowing him to progress from decent to good to great, and wanting too much too soon.

Edit: a quick example. When Feaster was fired, wasn't Sven immediately sent down to the AHL? Players this year, including Gaudreau, have been given the benefit of a game or two in the pressbox and then the opportunity to work their way back into the lineup. Sven was buried in the AHL and eviscerated in the media. That's not equal treatment. Even if that was a year ago and there are new policies in place, what happened happened.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by heep223

So, if we assume that what you're saying is true and that Sven never got a shot in the top 6, do you think there's some sort of conspiracy against him? Or do you think that Hartley's assessment of hockey ability is poor?

Why can't people just accept the fact that the coaching staff has been assessing Sven and they are not satisfied with his ability to play with 100% alignment to the system they've designed. They clearly don't trust something about his game and they don't want him to be a 1 dimensional player. So they are teaching him, coaching him and he's learning how to play the 200ft system in the minors.

Why is this such a big deal - do you not trust Hartley and our coaching staff? It seems like they've been pretty true to their words thus far. If you don't trust them and think they have it in for Sven for some reason that's unrelated to his play, then that's a different story.

Assume that it is true he never got a shot in the top 6? Don't have to assume it, it is a fact.

Again my post was in response to a poster who said Granlund, Jooris and Gaudreau worked their way up from the 4th line, so why can't Sven. He can't if he is never given the opportunity to do so.

I am happy that he is now on the farm actually getting minutes and producing. Having him up here playing 8 minutes a game on the fourth line wasn't going to help him or the team in anyway.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Jooris may have played with those guys his first game, but he didn't do well in the next few games - he was then demoted to the 4th line, give away less minutes, and ultimately benched. It was only after this that he became a more consistent guy with bigger minutes, and recently he has been given less and benched again.

If you watch you will notice that Hartley gives ice time on the basis of in-game performance - not what happened the last game. So Sven got more time in the game he played well, and his ice time was less the next game because he didn't continue it. I also believe Hartley gives time and assignments based on practice performance. Maybe Sven isn't a good practice player.

You also have to understand that Jooris was to be thje first call-up because his performance in training camp. Ferland and Granlund were next because of how they were doing in Addy (at a time when Sven was not doing well there). So their AHL performance instructed Hartley on what to expect and where to put him.

Finally, Setguchi was not a top 6 guy - he mostly played with Sven. he was gievn PP time because he's a right handed RW who will go to the net. There weren't many other options at the time. Plus, he's a 30 goal man in the NHL, so he was obviously given some time to see if he could regain the form. That's not the case with Sven, who hasn't done anything to earn benefit of the doubt points yet.

Well again, not true about Sven getting more ice in the game he had 2 assists and 2 takeaways in. He only got 4 shifts in the 3rd when the game was 5-3.

Obviously you forget Setoguchi played with Monahan for a stretch and also continually got PP time force fed to him. Basically what I'm saying is Sven never got the kind of opportunities that those other 4 players did. I don't see how anybody that has watched every Flames game this season can deny that fact.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

This is ridiculous. He didn't continue it because he was only given 7 minutes of ice time. In his 14 games with the Flames this season, he had a grand total of 2:01 of powerplay time (and 70% of that came from one game).

He was never put in a position to succeed like the other players were.

Sorry for being ridiculous. But what Hartley does is look at the first few shifts and then he goes with the guys who are doing well. Watch a game or two and you will see this. That's why ice times vary so much on this team from game to game.

And exactly which left winger did you want demoted from the top two lines at that time, Glencross or Gaudreau?

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

He was never put in a position to succeed like the other players were.

What is your theory as to why this is the case?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sorry for being ridiculous. But what Hartley does is look at the first few shifts and then he goes with the guys who are doing well. Watch a game or two and you will see this. That's why ice times vary so much on this team from game to game.

And exactly which left winger did you want demoted from the top two lines at that time, Glencross or Gaudreau?

You don't know that at all.

As already pointed out, Sven barely got any 3rd period ice time even in his 2 assist game. So the following game, because he doesn't exactly make something happen in his first two shifts, he gets benched for the rest of the game?

If Granlund and Jooris were treated the same way, they'd be averaging the same minutes per game with similar offensive numbers, too.

Hell, in his third game up, the Flames directed 17 shots towards the net when Baertschi was on the ice, versus only 7 against, and he still only got 50 some seconds of ice in the 3rd period.

I was never asking for Baertschi to replace Gaudreau or Glencross, but during this same time period, there was no reason why Setoguchi was being spoon fed PP time (in many games, he actually led the team in PP TOI).

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by heep223

What is your theory as to why this is the case?

Bob McKenzie mentioned last season that coaches in the NHL right now are better than they have ever been. But their biggest flaw is that they pick favorites and condemn others. We even heard this from Horak and Cervenka after they moved on from the Flames.

Even the best coaches do this. Maybe it's the way the player carries himself, or perhaps their is a communication barrier. Either way, I'm not looking to blame anyone.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

You don't know that at all.

As already pointed out, Sven barely got any 3rd period ice time even in his 2 assist game. So the following game, because he doesn't exactly make something happen in his first two shifts, he gets benched for the rest of the game?

Because the game was on the line and Sven isn't a good two-way player. BTW, you were wrong about his ice time the next game. It went up. The game after that, it went back down.

If Granlund and Jooris were treated the same way, they'd be averaging the same minutes per game with similar offensive numbers, too.

Granlund and Jooris are treated the same way. They are used situationally. Jooris has been scratched a few times lately. Granlund is about to be scratched. And, no, their offensive numbers wouldn't be the same because they are around the net, and Sven was a perimeter player, which doesn't lead to points in the big leagues.

Hell, in his third game up, the Flames directed 17 shots towards the net when Baertschi was on the ice, versus only 7 against, and he still only got 50 some seconds of ice in the 3rd period.

I was never asking for Baertschi to replace Gaudreau or Glencross, but during this same time period, there was no reason why Setoguchi was being spoon fed PP time (in many games, he actually led the team in PP TOI).

I already gave three reasons: RW/RHS, net front presence, past production in the NHL. Plus, at that 'same time period", Setoguchi was being scratched, not given more PP time. Then he got two more games and was sent down.

I've bolded my responses above.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Bob McKenzie mentioned last season that coaches in the NHL right now are better than they have ever been. But their biggest flaw is that they pick favorites and condemn others. We even heard this from Horak and Cervenka after they moved on from the Flames.

Even the best coaches do this. Maybe it's the way the player carries himself, or perhaps their is a communication barrier. Either way, I'm not looking to blame anyone.

Yeah, that's why Bouma (one of Hartley's acknowledged favorites) goes from 8 minutes to over 15 in two games. Or why Jooris gets scratched.

I think, despite your comment, that looking to blame someone (other than Sven) is exactly what you are doing.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, that's why Bouma (one of Hartley's acknowledged favorites) goes from 8 minutes to over 15 in two games. Or why Jooris gets scratched.

I think, despite your comment, that looking to blame someone (other than Sven) is exactly what you are doing.

Bouma is a 4th line player with 4th line stats. He does well with it, but that's all he is. An energy player, a grinder.

The fact that he was playing on the 1st line a few weeks ago should support my claim more than the deviation of his ice time.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Bob McKenzie mentioned last season that coaches in the NHL right now are better than they have ever been. But their biggest flaw is that they pick favorites and condemn others. We even heard this from Horak and Cervenka after they moved on from the Flames.

Even the best coaches do this. Maybe it's the way the player carries himself, or perhaps their is a communication barrier. Either way, I'm not blaming anyone.

I could get on board with this if Sven continues his recent success in Addy for another month or two and still doesn't get a chance.

I dunno though. The guy needs to produce points to be effective, that's his game. He has produced at a 0.7 PPG clip in his career in the AHL and a 0.4 PPG clip in the NHL pretty consistently. That's not too bad, but his only game really is production. That's why coaching staff want to teach him more about the game so if he's not producing he's still a valuable player. If he's producing at a rate of 0.4 PPG in the NHL, and he doesn't add any physicality, strong defensive play, PK, etc... he would be playing top 6 minutes over GlenX and Gaudreau? Hmmmm.

If he was producing at a > point per game clip in the AHL and was still not getting a chance, I would agree with you. He needs to make it hard for coaching staff to ignore him, a la Jooris or Gaudreau. He's definitely starting to and needs to keep it up. It's not so black and white though, both sides of the Sven debate could be argued rationally. So IMO taking a really strong stance either way is kind of pointless. He needs to make it black and white.

[Hack&Lube]

If Sven does well in the AHL for the remainder of this season, I'd like to see him get a call-up and be able to play with Monahan again, like when he was producing last year before the demotion. He doesn't belong on the 3rd/4th line with scrubs.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

If Sven does well in the AHL for the remainder of this season, I'd like to see him get a call-up and be able to play with Monahan again, like when he was producing last year before the demotion. He doesn't belong on the 3rd/4th line with scrubs.

He can only get a call up and play with Monahan if either Gaudreau or Glencross get hurt. And he won't be on his line if Monahan keeps getting the job of shutting down the top lines on other teams.

Michael Backlund doesn't appreciate being called a scrub. If Sven plays on his wing on a third line, I doubt you can complain that he's not got a decent centre. And if you can only be a points producer when playing with a particular guy, maybe it's not a good thing. Should Byron (who was a points guy in the Q) make a similar complaint?

It wasn't just a lack of production that hurt Sven this year. He just didn't play very well. Ferland had no points, but most agree he just looked like an NHL player in waiting. Byron is lacking in production, but he gets great looks and is a demon on the forecheck. Sven had a lot of one and done rushes, and was not effective in the forecheck very often.

Maybe Sven should expand his repertoire a bit so he can play in more situations. I'm pretty sure that's what the Gallagher comments were about - an undersized points producer who learned a significant role.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It wasn't just a lack of production that hurt Sven this year. He just didn't play very well. Ferland had no points, but most agree he just looked like an NHL player in waiting. Byron is lacking in production, but he gets great looks and is a demon on the forecheck. Sven had a lot of one and done rushes, and was not effective in the forecheck very often.

And how many times did good passes from Sven on the forecheck get lost by Brandon Stone-Hands Bollig or Devin No-Points Setoguchi?

Few guys can create offense all by themselves. I can recall numerous good feeds and good chances off the cycle created by Sven go to waste on his plugger linemates who bobble passes or don't know where to go to get in scoring position.

I'm not saying he deserves it, maybe he does maybe he doesn't, but if you put Sven with decent linemates he puts up points. Same thing in the AHL. Most of last year he wasn't playing top line. Since his most recent demotion, he is, and is almost PPG in his last 15.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

And how many times did good passes from Sven on the forecheck get lost by Brandon Stone-Hands Bollig or Devin No-Points Setoguchi?

Few guys can create offense all by themselves. I can recall numerous good feeds and good chances off the cycle created by Sven go to waste on his plugger linemates who bobble passes or don't know where to go to get in scoring position.

I'm not saying he deserves it, maybe he does maybe he doesn't, but if you put Sven with decent linemates he puts up points. Same thing in the AHL. Most of last year he wasn't playing top line. Since his most recent demotion, he is, and is almost PPG in his last 15.

Not many times. He didn't get his stick on the puck enough in the offensive zone. You are simply imagining things if you think Sven had a lot going in a cycle. He would go in, try to get the puck, but be on the wrong side of the defenceman, and the play would go the other way. I won't argue about Bollig, but IMO Setoguchi looked better than Sven, and had better jump to his play, when they played at the same time.

He also played with Bouma, Jooris and Byron a fair bit. Those guys don't have zero offensive talent.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

This is ridiculous. He didn't continue it because he was only given 7 minutes of ice time. In his 14 games with the Flames this season, he had a grand total of 2:01 of powerplay time (and 70% of that came from one game).

He was never put in a position to succeed like the other players were.

Sven usually had decent ice-time in the first 2 periods and almost nothing in the 3rd period. If he played well enough early in the game and could be trusted by Hartley his ice time would have been over 10 minutes a game.