Does Sven have a future with the Flames?

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Flames have 4 really small guys: Russel, Gaudreau, Byron, and Baertschi
What does each have:
1) Russell - mobile 2nd/3rd pairing defenseman
2) Gaudreau - really good puck control with good vision on ice
- great hockey sense
- kind of reminds you of someone like Gretzky, but on a Flames team
3) Byron - got speed that can burn through the defense
4) Baerschti - he's as tall Russell but plays like a midget/bantom.
- the way I see it and what a lot of people also view the same way is that there's really nothing special about Baertschi, except that he's got most of the vowels except missing the "o" in his last name. Flames currently have a few more minor leaguers who are itching to get into the big leagues and they're better than Baertschi right now.

Baertschi has to bring a lot more to the Flames lineup in order for him to make it up here or anywhere in this NHL or he'll just end up like another Fata or Domenichelli. I'd love to see him have a skill like that of Gaudreau and the Flames need more players like that.

I wouldn't go that far.. I think Sven has shown that he has elite passing ability and most of his other skills, outside of physicality and for the time being mental toughness, look to be above average.

[nik-]

I think part of the problem is that Sven doesn't clearly know what the Flames want him to be, and I'm not sure that the Flames clearly know what they want him to be either. The "be like Brendan Gallagher" (paraphrasing) comment was ridiculous tbh, and if that's what they want, they should just move him now because that's not the type of player he is.

He just seems scared to play a creative game because he doesn't want to #### up and end up back in the doghouse. They've basically scared the flash out of him. That first benching last year, unwarranted in my mind, ####ed up his development because imo it sent the wrong message. He was far from a problem before that benching.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think part of the problem is that Sven doesn't clearly know what the Flames want him to be, and I'm not sure that the Flames clearly know what they want him to be either. The "be like Brendan Gallagher" (paraphrasing) comment was ridiculous tbh, and if that's what they want, they should just move him now because that's not the type of player he is.

That Gallagher comment was one of the biggest Eric Francis Wtf moments, even Millions standing beside him looked totally surprised he said it.

We've never heard of anything like that before and nothing after. Think it's safe to say Francis was totally talking out of his backside.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

That Gallagher comment was one of the biggest Eric Francis Wtf moments, even Millions standing beside him looked totally surprised he said it.

We've never heard of anything like that before and nothing after. Think it's safe to say Francis was totally talking out of his backside.

“Just overall,” replied Hartley. “Overall commitment to learn the game in the three zones. To come up with great efforts every game. I always mention (Montreal’s Brendan) Gallagher to him.

http://calgaryherald.com/sports/hock...rdano-doubtful

It's silly to even reference a pests game to Sven Baertschi imo. If that's what they want him to add, basically change his personality, then it's probably never going to work out here and it's time to move on.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Nobody is thinking Gaudreau. He's obviously a rare talent. There are still plenty of players who passed Baertschi on the depth chart.

At left wing? Who? Ferland? Seriously debatable. Anyone else?

[mile]

Originally Posted by nik-

http://calgaryherald.com/sports/hock...rdano-doubtful

It's silly to even reference a pests game to Sven Baertschi imo. If that's what they want him to add, basically change his personality, then it's probably never going to work out here and it's time to move on.

Hartley isn't telling Sven to play like a pest or change his personality, he is simply pointing to Gallagher as an example of a small guy who competes for every inch of ice each shift. Hartley just wants Sven to battle hard and create energy each shift, something that is expected from every young player on this team - and Gallagher is a very good example of that.

Was there confusion back then? Probably. I think today there is a better understanding from Sven on the improvements in his game he needs to make, and I see it from his play and his attitude lately.

All indications about Sven recently have been positive...not sure why there is so much pessimism about him lately.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nik-

Maybe not to that degree, but there were a lot of people who conveniently flipped the switch on Sven the moment his game was criticized by Burkie.

That's not completely accurate. There were some people on this forum that noticed some problems long before Burke spoke out after rookie camp, and those people got jumped on for fabricating stuff. Interestingly enough those same issues were exactly what Burke spoke of after rookie camp. Many of the things that these people saw continue to be problematic. It is not an "I told you so" moment, it is just the way things are.

The problem with Baertschi is he was the first big hope for many of the fans post-Iginla. People pinned do much hope on him, and got so emotionally invested in the kid, they have had a hard time seeing the player for what he is. When people do point out the obvious they are hammered with being a Baertschi hater, which is as far from the truth as you can get. People are making observations based on what they see. That is the benefit of not getting emotionally invested in the prospects.

I think some of what we see is similar to the Jankowski affect, but opposite. Jankowski was an off the board pick by a GM that certain people hated. As a result Jankowski can do nothing right, even when he is excelling in the system he finds himself. Baertschi, otoh, was considered a great pick and has had the benefit of that status. People are more than willing to give him all the time in the world, while at the same time calling a player who hasn't even turned pro a complete failure. People have become emotionally invested in the failure of Jankowski so they can have yet another thing to hold against Feaster and Weisbrod. Just as strange behavior.

Personally I am hoping all our prospects turn into stars. But I do recognize that is unlikely. All I care about when I watch these kids is growth in their game. That is why some guys get more praise than others and why some may seem to get pushed aside. There is a very small window for players to prove their worth and they get judged accordingly. Fair or not, that's the reality of the NHL.

[AcGold]

I still think he is a top 6 guy. Sven has such good eye hand and passing ability that it will get him there. Might take until he's 25 but he arguably has top 3 eyehand in the Flames system.

He's not super small and he's not really injury prone. It'll just take time, he needs to mature. Johnny and Monahan have the maturity of 29 years olds whereas Sven was fairly immature for his age. Give him time, we've got nothing to lose.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I wouldn't go that far.. I think Sven has shown that he has elite passing ability and most of his other skills, outside of physicality and for the time being mental toughness, look to be above average.

I don't think he's shown elite passing skills. Maybe somewhat above average. He had one really good pass in his time this year (that a bunch of posters gushed over like no one had ever made a stretch pass before). Elite passing means, IMO, Gaudreau, Sedin, Oates, Toews, Chouinard, etc. I'd say his passing is behind 4 or 5 others on the team, if not more. And his skating, puck sense, shooting, etc are middling.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'd say his passing is behind 4 or 5 others on the team, if not more.

I started writing that I agree with you, but then I started listing players and could really only come up with 3 that are hands down better passers/playmakers IMO. Gaudreau, Hudler, and Brodie. Possibly Russell. Interested to hear who else you think.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by heep223

I started writing that I agree with you, but then I started listing players and could really only come up with 3 that are hands down better passers/playmakers IMO. Gaudreau, Hudler, and Brodie. Possibly Russell. Interested to hear who else you think.

Gio is a great passer. He's sauced a few nice ones across the offensive zone. Russell was on my list.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

At left wing? Who? Ferland? Seriously debatable. Anyone else?

I don't think that is debatable at all. Ferland's growth has been superior to that of Baertschi. The team also likes his size and willingness to play any role. The team has said as much. Sven has been hot of late, but he has the same number of goals and two more assists than Ferland in 3 more games played.

You also have to consider the number of centers we have that are left handed and how they may shakeout in the system. You have to take into consideration Granlund, Arnold, Hanowski, Agostino and Wolf as competition as well. Arnold is big and is a such a solid player you would have to think that at some point they are going to have to find a spot for him. If Baertschi were scoring more I would maybe agree with you, but when he is dead even with players scoring wise you have to start looking at e other aspects of the game and recognize his weaknesses. If the offense is similar you have to start looking at the other aspects of the game, and Sven is naturally challenged in the size department and lags behind in the defensive awareness department. So if it comes down to it, who do you go with? Especially if a player is not living up to that scoring standard expected of him?

For Sven to jump to the front of the LW queue he really needs to start scoring in the AHL, and in bunches. He needs to dominate that level, and soon. Tatar is routinely trotted out as a comparison for Baertschi, but Tatar played his last game in the AHL as a 21 year old, and after scoring 87 goals and 196 points for the Red Wings affiliate during his time in the minors. That is the same level Bartschi needs to get to. Obviously not those exact numbers but if he can hit 20 goals and 45 points this year, he'll have probably earned that top spot again. He really needs to start impressing in places that can be measured. Unless there is an advanced stat for 'swagger' that will get him noticed he's got to start filling the net.

[GioforPM]

Sven is a scoring winger. So he can really only find a spot on any team's top two lines. His problem in this case is not only Gaudreau, and maybe Ferland - it's Emile Poirier. Bennett might start on the wing as well.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sven is a scoring winger. So he can really only find a spot on any team's top two lines. His problem in this case is not only Gaudreau, and maybe Ferland - it's Emile Poirier. Bennett might start on the wing as well.

Why is it Emile Poirier? He plays with Poirier on a line right now, they seem to have some chemistry. One plays the left side, on the right.

In today's NHL you really want 6 capable wingers, not 4. The bangers and muckers can stay on the 4th line but one through three you want talent.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by New Era

I don't think that is debatable at all. Ferland's growth has been superior to that of Baertschi. The team also likes his size and willingness to play any role. The team has said as much. Sven has been hot of late, but he has the same number of goals and two more assists than Ferland in 3 more games played.

Really? It can't be debated whether Ferland or Baertschi is our top LW prospect? Also, great. Ferland can be a bottom 6 winger and be effective doing it. Baertschi is going to be a top 6 winger if he's going to be anything. Do you prefer simple likelihood of playing NHL games or probability of making an impact while doing so? I'll take the latter, and so far Baertschi has shown me flashes of game-breaking skill while Ferland hasn't. Ferland is far from skill-less, but since you're so fixated on simple stats without much context, Ferland has 1 NHL point. One. You're all about the pure numbers results, so why the love for a guy with a 0.1 PPG in his NHL career? Because he's big? Or because he has potential?

My view is Baertschi's ceiling is higher than Ferland's. On the flip side, Baertschi's floor is lower. In any case, my original point in all of this is it seems like there are people (like you, apparently) who, for some reason, can only like ONE of our LW prospects. Ferland made some good strides this year, so ship Baertschi out the door. Is that it? We can't like both?

Mystifying. If people were as hard on Ferland as they are on Baertschi he would have been traded years ago with his legal problems, conditioning issues, and what, at the time, were character flaws. We were patient. Now we have a legit prospect on our hands.

Baertschi is a legit prospect. And he is a CALGARY FLAME. Why some people are way more intent on pointing out his flaws, bad games, and bad shifts than any other of our prospects blows my mind.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Why is it Emile Poirier? He plays with Poirier on a line right now, they seem to have some chemistry. One plays the left side, on the right.

In today's NHL you really want 6 capable wingers, not 4. The bangers and muckers can stay on the 4th line but one through three you want talent.

Because Poirier is a left shooting left winger. Who is playing their wrong wing?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Because Poirier is a left shooting left winger. Who is playing their wrong wing?

Poirier is a left shooting right wing. He's always played his off wing.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Because Poirier is a left shooting left winger. Who is playing their wrong wing?

Poirier is a right winger, and has been since Junior. That's his preference.

[mile]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Because Poirier is a left shooting left winger. Who is playing their wrong wing?

Poirier is a right winger.

[GioforPM]

It's odd that the Flames list him as left, as does hockeydb, etc. but that's good news for me because our right side is way weaker than the left.