[Rumour] Dreger: Hall is the face of the Oiler's culture problem. I expect him to be shopped

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I think your putting to much emphasis on position. I think the individual player and team need are the determining factors. You can have top line wingers far more valuable than certain top line centers and vice versa.

I don't think I am. I think a winger is almost always of less value than a defenceman or centre of equal skill. Teams whose best player is a winger don't do as well as teams whose best skater is a centre. Sid and Ovie were considered pretty close in value at one time. Not any more, and ordinary wingers turn into scorers on the Pens. The Flames had the best winger in the game and didn't do that well. On the other hand, crap teams added a Pronger and became contenders.

It's one reason I'd take RNH over Hall.

[CliffFletcher]

People need to take Hall's salary into consideration. Teams would want to send at least $3 mil in salary back to the Oilers. So proposals for just prospects or players on their first contract aren't plausible.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Hall's salary does not need to be retained. For the points he puts up he is worth his 6m contract, which in my opinion, makes him have a lot more trade value than what most are crediting him for.

His defensive game no doubt could use some work, that's probably why he'd be an ideal fit to a team on the East.

[GioforPM]

I agree Hall's salary probably isn't an impediment, except for any cap issues. I thought (and still think) they should have bridged them, but it's not too excessive in today's market.

[Enoch Root]

His contract isn't excessive, no. But that wasn't CF's point. His point is that not many teams can pick up $6m without sending some dollars back the other way. Any trade proposal should - as he suggested - have at least $3 or $4m going back to Edmonton.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

His contract isn't excessive, no. But that wasn't CF's point. His point is that not many teams can pick up $6m without sending some dollars back the other way. Any trade proposal should - as he suggested - have at least $3 or $4m going back to Edmonton.

I totally read his post wrong. My mind kept saying "Why does Hall need to be 50% retained?!?"

My mind is elsewhere right now, definitely don't want to be at work.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkittles

No offense but those are all awful. Maybe if it was Schenn + Couts, but the TB and Islander ones are quite bad. Bailey is a winger now, he sucks at Center and is a 3rd liner now. Killorn is also a 3rd liner and Carle at this point is a cap dump.

Think more like Palat, Johnson, Kucherov, strome, Nelson, etc

Situational need matters too. Tampa Bay does not need another left winger, even Taylor Hall. Especially if it will cost them somoene like Palat.

The question isn't just what Edmonton and their fans think they can get, but what the other teams are willing to give up.

[JohnnySkittles]

Originally Posted by devo22

Brayden Schenn is a center (so more important/higher regarded than a winger) and also outscoring Hall this season. Reinhart is one of the best/highest thought of D prospects in the whole league, and while Killorn might be a #3 C in Tampa (behind Stamkos and Johnson, who are both fantastic ... and there's also Filppula), he'd surely be a top 6 center in Edmonton. EASILY.

Seriously, I think you overvalue Hall and the interest he'll get around the league quite a bit. He's bad/lazy defensively, he's now rumoured to be a locker room cancer and after all, he's a winger. Center and defensemen > wingers, it's really that simple. Taylor Hall is not going to return them a Seth Jones type of player, and he's not going to return a combo of 2 young good centermen (like you suggested "Schenn + Couturier"). I'd be shocked if the Oilers could trade him for more than a #2 center and a 2nd pairing D, but hey, we'll see.

Also, Palat-Johnson-Kucherov is one of the most balanced and defensively responsible lines in the whole NHL. They have unreal chemistry, spend a lot of time on the PK and also produce a lot of offense. It's almost like Tampa has two 1st lines now. And frankly, I'm sure Yzerman wouldn't trade a single one of those guys straight up for Hall, simply because they all play a 200 ft game and have awesome chemistry. Plus Palat and Johnson have just signed really cheap 3 year deals. They are going nowhere.

Schenn hasn't been a center for a few years now, he usually plays on the wing with Giroux and Voracek, so I think it's fair to say he might be racking up more points then usual due to playing with those two.
Where is he rumoured to be a locker room cancer? At one time Olli Jokinen was also rumoured to be a cancer, a rumour is a rumour, and if your source is Dreger, that's basically an Eklund level rumour.

He absolutely will get a big return if traded, much MUCH bigger then players like Killorn and Matt Carle. But I never said he would, I'm strictly speaking on what his value is, and that is a lot. If he does he dealt it'll be something along the lines of Strome + Reinhart with another small piece.

If the Oilers were to trade him for a #2 center and a 2nd pairing Dman that would be a gigantic robbery by the other team.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkittles

If the Oilers were to trade him for a #2 center and a 2nd pairing Dman that would be a gigantic robbery by the other team.

That's the market. When was the last time you got a big star for star deal? It's typically always star player for a quantity return. The Oilers aren't a single player away from being a good team. Getting a 2nd line center and legitimate top 4 defenseman that are in the age range of 20-28 years old for Hall definitely makes the Oilers a better overall team going forward. They are going to be able to draft another solid offensive player this year and can afford to lose his points as he's proven he's not a player you can build a team around. Hall will be a great 1st line winger on a good team but he's never going to be a cornerstone player as his overall game just isn't that good and his leadership stinks.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That's the market. When was the last time you got a big star for star deal? It's typically always star player for a quantity return. The Oilers aren't a single player away from being a good team. Getting a 2nd line center and legitimate top 4 defenseman that are in the age range of 20-28 years old for Hall definitely makes the Oilers a better overall team going forward. They are going to be able to draft another solid offensive player this year and can afford to lose his points as he's proven he's not a player you can build a team around. Hall will be a great 1st line winger on a good team but he's never going to be a cornerstone player as his overall game just isn't that good and his leadership stinks.

Heatley for Hossa?
That was 2005

[JohnnySkittles]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That's the market. When was the last time you got a big star for star deal? It's typically always star player for a quantity return. The Oilers aren't a single player away from being a good team. Getting a 2nd line center and legitimate top 4 defenseman that are in the age range of 20-28 years old for Hall definitely makes the Oilers a better overall team going forward. They are going to be able to draft another solid offensive player this year and can afford to lose his points as he's proven he's not a player you can build around.

How is it proven though? He's only 23 years old and has literally no structure since getting to Edmonton, give him a good coach and system and he thrives. If the best they can get for him is a 2nd line center/defender then they're better off keeping him. They already have RNH, and the Leon kid, and looks like Mcdavid or Eichel. They'd be much smarter to Keep Hall/RNH/2015 pick/Leon and trade Eberle and Yakupov for 2nd line pieces like that.

[Poe969]

atta boy Johnny, now you're thinking like the oilers! They have a terrible team and want to trade their players who are playing terrible for awesome players and if they can't get awesome players, then they shouldn't make the deal because they're terrible and going to get an awesome player for free because they're terrible! Sure, they've done it before and it didn't pan out the first 8 times but this time it'll work for sure!

[Coach]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkittles

How is it proven though? He's only 23 years old and has literally no structure since getting to Edmonton, give him a good coach and system and he thrives. If the best they can get for him is a 2nd line center/defender then they're better off keeping him. They already have RNH, and the Leon kid, and looks like Mcdavid or Eichel. They'd be much smarter to Keep Hall/RNH/2015 pick/Leon and trade Eberle and Yakupov for 2nd line pieces like that.

This is the unknown everyone is worried about and what will presumably bring down his trade value.

No one can know this for sure.

[JohnnySkittles]

Originally Posted by Poe969

atta boy Johnny, now you're thinking like the oilers! They have a terrible team and want to trade their players who are playing terrible for awesome players and if they can't get awesome players, then they shouldn't make the deal because they're terrible and going to get an awesome player for free because they're terrible! Sure, they've done it before and it didn't pan out the first 8 times but this time it'll work for sure!

Since when is a 2nd line player the same as an "awesome" player? I'm not talking about getting Sidney Crosby. There were reports of a Yakupov or Eberle trade centered around Anisimov? So trading them for pieces like that would add depth and make them a better team I think.

Get them out of Edmonton and out of that toxic environment and they thrive. That's what a lot of teams see I'm sure and why a deal is so hard to make.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by MattyC

This is the unknown everyone is worried about and what will presumably bring down his trade value.

No one can know this for sure.

Yeah... but 50% would be willing to gamble - like Dallas did on Seguin.
And so yeah - it will have to be a big return. Boston got junk for Seguin. Edmonton can't for Hall.
So I expect no deal involving him will happen.

They are better to keep him and trade the useless floater Eberle. He is not worth anywhere near as much as Hall, but I think you could get a decent deal done there, believe it or not.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkittles

How is it proven though? He's only 23 years old and has literally no structure since getting to Edmonton, give him a good coach and system and he thrives. If the best they can get for him is a 2nd line center/defender then they're better off keeping him. They already have RNH, and the Leon kid, and looks like Mcdavid or Eichel. They'd be much smarter to Keep Hall/RNH/2015 pick/Leon and trade Eberle and Yakupov for 2nd line pieces like that.

So if Hall is maybe the locker room issue that we are hearing you want him to continue to be influencing McDavid/Eichel, Leon, etc? This isn't year 2 or 3 into the rebuild it's year 9. It's simply not working and the rebuilding plan of simply not fixing the problem and counting on the addition of 1st round picks to solve the problem simply isn't working. Something has to change and Hall is the poster boy for what has been arguably the biggest laughing stock in the history of the NHL. Just like Iginla was part of the culture problem in Calgary at the end Hall is part of the losing culture issue with the Oilers.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkittles

Get them out of Edmonton and out of that toxic environment and they thrive. That's what a lot of teams see I'm sure and why a deal is so hard to make.

Will guys like Eberle and Yakupov thrive on other teams? I would argue that Yakupov right now wouldn't be playing on the roster of most NHL teams as he should be in the AHL and guys like himself and Eberle aren't going to get ice time just because of who they are with good organizations. Will Eberle be better with his ice time reduced or asked to play a team game? Jury is out on all these guys as personally I think Hall would do well on another team but I really don't think Yakupov and Eberle are nearly as good as the hype.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Yeah... but 50% would be willing to gamble - like Dallas did on Seguin.
And so yeah - it will have to be a big return. Boston got junk for Seguin. Edmonton can't for Hall.
So I expect no deal involving him will happen.

They are better to keep him and trade the useless floater Eberle. He is not worth anywhere near as much as Hall, but I think you could get a decent deal done there, believe it or not.

Yeah I would agree with that. But my point was refering to what the return would be for Hall. A few people seem to be looking at trading Hall in a vaccuum (ie. What is his value from a pure hockey player/point getter stand point). And while I agree it is high, it's not as high as Edmonton and their fans want and the unknowns surrounding him are exactly the reason why.

For sure some would take a chance on him, but not a full value. That's what I'm saying.

I agree the should look at trading Yak and Eberle, but they have the same stigma, if not worse, and they're not as good of hockey players. So their values are going to be lower than they should too.

But Edmonton has to do something. They can't just sit with this terrible team forever...can they?

[JohnnySkittles]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

So if Hall is maybe the locker room issue that we are hearing you want him to continue to be influencing McDavid/Eichel, Leon, etc? This isn't year 2 or 3 into the rebuild it's year 9. It's simply not working and the rebuilding plan of simply not fixing the problem and counting on the addition of 1st round picks to solve the problem simply isn't working. Something has to change and Hall is the poster boy for what has been arguably the biggest laughing stock in the history of the NHL. Just like Iginla was part of the culture problem in Calgary at the end Hall is part of the losing culture issue with the Oilers.

Just like how Seguin was a locker room issue? This is media driven remember. And maybe he does have an attitude problem, which is why they NEED to get a coach to whip the bad habits out of that group.

But trading your most valuable piece for under his value is? No. I agree something has to change, management needs a clean house, just like how Calgary swept house and the culture changed dramatically, this team is night and day compared to a few years ago, and the same needs to happen in Edmonton, but who knows if that'll happen.
And lets not compare Iginla to Hall, two different situations, and to say Iginla was a culture issue is completely wrong.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkittles

How is it proven though? He's only 23 years old and has literally no structure since getting to Edmonton, give him a good coach and system and he thrives. If the best they can get for him is a 2nd line center/defender then they're better off keeping him. They already have RNH, and the Leon kid, and looks like Mcdavid or Eichel. They'd be much smarter to Keep Hall/RNH/2015 pick/Leon and trade Eberle and Yakupov for 2nd line pieces like that.

I think you are missing the reason that this discussion is even happening: the Oilers have come to realize that Hall may be part of the problem instead of the solution.

Not trading him retains the status quo of the dressing room, which is a big steaming coil of ugliness at the moment.

If you don't change anything, adding McEichel to that mess simply means that you now have a big stinking mess with one more talented young player added to it.

The Oilers have to decide whether or not they want to address their problems. If they do - and by extension decide they need to trade Hall - they will have to accept WAY less than you think he is worth (his full potential worth in the best case scenario and the current market value for him are two completely different things).

That is the Oiler conundrum: trade him at less than full market, or don't and maintain the status quo.

That is what you call being stuck between a rock and a hard place. And the Oilers have brought this on themselves. Not only that, but trying to wait it out not only doesn't solve their problems, but likely makes them worse.

That is why the sharks are circling: because the Oilers are hooped.