[Rumour] Dreger: Hall is the face of the Oiler's culture problem. I expect him to be shopped

[dino7c]

wait I thought Hall was the best LW in hockey

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Brodie's not a true top 2 dman IMO. He can compliment a top pairing but he'll never be a #1. Hall has a lot more value than Brodie, and I really like Brodie. Ideally he's the top dog on an elite 2nd pairing.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Brodie's not a true top 2 dman IMO. He can compliment a top pairing but he'll never be a #1. Hall has a lot more value than Brodie, and I really like Brodie. Ideally he's the top dog on an elite 2nd pairing.

Maybe not a #1 but a number two. Which is top pairing.

Hall won't ever be the top guy on the top line either. He'll compliment the center, if he ever finds his own end.

[Jacks]

Brodie is 24 and improving every year. Impossible to say what his ceiling is right now but it's probably at least a #3, probably a #2 and possibly a #1 in the future.

[dino7c]

Brodie is 24

Remind me of what Gio was doing at 24

Sky is the limit for #7

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Brodie is 24 and improving every year. Impossible to say what his ceiling is right now but it's probably at least a #3, probably a #2 and possibly a #1 in the future.

What? He's already a solid #2 and he's only 24.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

If I was the GM of EDM, no way I'd accept less than Brodie+Backlund+1st. Reinhart is really not worth that much, maybe a 3rd. Maybe make it Hanowski or Agostino instead. What about Brodie+Backlund+Klimchuk+3rd? Still too much?

Well then you would be one very disappointed Oiler GM. Hall's value would be more like Backlund + 1st + a prospect IMO. In other words, drop Brodie.

You are clearly an Oiler fan. And you massively under-rate Brodie if you think his ceiling is a 2nd pairing guy.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well then you would be one very disappointed Oiler GM. Hall's value would be more like Backlund + 1st + a prospect IMO. In other words, drop Brodie.

You are clearly an Oiler fan. And you massively under-rate Brodie if you think his ceiling is a 2nd pairing guy.

Yep you got me, total oiler fan. Basically not being a homer=oiler fan, good to know. If he was only worth Backlund+1st+prospect he would be dealt already depending on what you mean by 'prospect'. Could be Poirier, Bennett, Jankowski, Roy, Elson, Rafikov... kind of important to be a little more specific there.

Also I should say I wouldn't do that trade if I was Calgary either, I was just estimating his value.... really I was just wanting to engage in some legitimate hockey talk. Anyway, Edmonton and Calgary are hardly good trading partners for a multitude of reasons. Technically we have the pieces to go after a big fish like Hall, but it wouldn't be smart this early into a rebuild.

Sorry I came off a little annoyed but, geez... calling someone an oiler fan is pretty much a personal attack. I would be lying if I were to say my jimmies weren't a little rustled over that.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

What? He's already a solid #2 and he's only 24.

I was trying not to be a homer. Brodie has clearly benefited from playing with Gio. He needs to get a couple seasons as a top 2 guy under his belt before we can say that IMO. Agree that he will most likely be a #2 at worst though.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Important to note player progression is not linear and can't be predicted. This could be the very best Brodie ever plays and he regresses and struggles next year and beyond... or he could stay the same for years and years... or he could take another step al a Giordano. Who knows? There's a set of odds for all those scenarios. I will say though, he has been outstanding this year to say the least. That is no surprise to me though, if you look through my posting history you will see in the summer I predicted 45-50 points from Brodie this year. Doesn't mean I think he's got #1 dman potential though (I could be wrong, just my opinion) I can like the kid and think he's not going to be a star but rather a very top end #3 or a partner to a true #1. That doesn't make him a true #2, just like Jones and Glencross are hardly top line players even if they play there from time to time. I think it's very possible we are witnessing Brodie's true potential right now, as in he's not likely to get any better.... but really, is that such a bad thing? Ultimately I would like to see him pushed to the 2nd pairing as it would likely mean we have a top 5 defense and are very likely a contender.

[Enoch Root]

And the same could be said about Hall (already being at his peak).

In fact, a 23 year old point producing winger is far closer to his peak than a 24 year old defenseman, as a general rule.

And just for fun...

Brodie: 33G 6G 17A 23P
Hall:....27G 8G 10A 18P

just saying

[devo22]

IMO if you get a young 2nd line center and a 2nd pairing defenseman, you take that for Hall and run. Strengthen that D core and build from the middle up front for once. Just for fun:

from PHI: Brayden Schenn (or Sean Couturier) + Braydon Coburn
from NYI: Josh Bailey + Griffin Reinhart
from TBL: Alex Killorn + Matthew Carle + 2nd

Might need some tinkering here and there, but you get the idea. If I'm PHI, NYI or TBL, I seriously consider moving those packages, just because those teams have 3 of the best centers in the game and I think that Hall would tear up the East alongside Giroux/Tavares/Stamkos. Meanwhile, the Oilers could build their core in rebuild 4.0 around McDavid, Draisaitl and the guy they are getting in one of those deals plus a solid defenseman.

/end armchair mode

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Yep you got me, total oiler fan. Basically not being a homer=oiler fan, good to know. If he was only worth Backlund+1st+prospect he would be dealt already depending on what you mean by 'prospect'. Could be Poirier, Bennett, Jankowski, Roy, Elson, Rafikov... kind of important to be a little more specific there.

Also I should say I wouldn't do that trade if I was Calgary either, I was just estimating his value.... really I was just wanting to engage in some legitimate hockey talk. Anyway, Edmonton and Calgary are hardly good trading partners for a multitude of reasons. Technically we have the pieces to go after a big fish like Hall, but it wouldn't be smart this early into a rebuild.

Sorry I came off a little annoyed but, geez... calling someone an oiler fan is pretty much a personal attack. I would be lying if I were to say my jimmies weren't a little rustled over that.

It's pretty funny, when you think about it, that people would consider being called an Oiler fan a personal attack. No, it wasn't meant as an insult, simply an observation.

Based solely on this year's play, it could easily be argued that Brodie has been a better player than Hall, straight up. He is out-producing him as a defenseman, while playing top-pairing, shut down minutes, while Hall has been a defensive liability in his pursuit of stats. Obviously, there is more to it than simply their play this year, but the point remains.

So when you suggest that Hall is worth Brodie + Backlund + 1st (very valuable this year) + ?, I figured you had to be an Oiler fan because coming to that conclusion would require 2 things IMO:

1) a massive homer view of Hall, still seeing him as the 1st overall wonderboy that he was 5 years ago, and

2) being completely unaware of just how far Brodie has progressed over the last 2 or 3 seasons.

Anyway, I totally agree that Calgary and Edmonton wouldn't make good trading partners, and there is no chance of a blockbuster between the two teams.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Brodie's not a true top 2 dman IMO. He can compliment a top pairing but he'll never be a #1. Hall has a lot more value than Brodie, and I really like Brodie. Ideally he's the top dog on an elite 2nd pairing.

A guy who compliments the #1D is a true top 2 dman...

In terms of value, I would say the deals using Flames players as analogs aren't terrible as they are the kind of packages the Oilers should be looking for if they were smart - Good young defenceman, help at centre, filler.

In our specific situation, not a chance on earth I would make that trade, even if I didn't have a major problem with trading with the Oilers.

[GioforPM]

You MIGHT trade a top pairing defenceman for a top line centre, if you have D depth. I don't think you'd ever trade a top pairing d-man for a scoring winger. There are too many around, and a good centre can generate goals for lesser talents.

The exception might be a winger who is a playmaker like Gaudreau if he develops (becuase he's more like a centre then), or a guy who's won a scoring championship like Perry.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by browna

Hawks may or may not want to do that, but Sharp has an NMC, Seabrook an NTC. There's waiving because you know you're not in the team's plans...but this isn't that scenario with the state the Oilers are in, with Lowe and all his slimy tricks which probably all in the PA are well aware of.

NTC and NMC aside, this is the type of deal the Oilers should be making. They need those vets with skill and pedigree.

[JohnnySkittles]

Originally Posted by devo22

IMO if you get a young 2nd line center and a 2nd pairing defenseman, you take that for Hall and run. Strengthen that D core and build from the middle up front for once. Just for fun:

from PHI: Brayden Schenn (or Sean Couturier) + Braydon Coburn
from NYI: Josh Bailey + Griffin Reinhart
from TBL: Alex Killorn + Matthew Carle + 2nd

Might need some tinkering here and there, but you get the idea. If I'm PHI, NYI or TBL, I seriously consider moving those packages, just because those teams have 3 of the best centers in the game and I think that Hall would tear up the East alongside Giroux/Tavares/Stamkos. Meanwhile, the Oilers could build their core in rebuild 4.0 around McDavid, Draisaitl and the guy they are getting in one of those deals plus a solid defenseman.

/end armchair mode

No offense but those are all awful. Maybe if it was Schenn + Couts, but the TB and Islander ones are quite bad. Bailey is a winger now, he sucks at Center and is a 3rd liner now. Killorn is also a 3rd liner and Carle at this point is a cap dump.

Think more like Palat, Johnson, Kucherov, strome, Nelson, etc

[You Need a Thneed]

If Taylor Hall is traded, he's going to return a lot less than some people are saying.

Not that it would ever happen anyway, but I wouldn't trade Brodie straight up for Hall. No GM in the league would either.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You MIGHT trade a top pairing defenceman for a top line centre, if you have D depth. I don't think you'd ever trade a top pairing d-man for a scoring winger. There are too many around, and a good centre can generate goals for lesser talents.

The exception might be a winger who is a playmaker like Gaudreau if he develops (becuase he's more like a centre then), or a guy who's won a scoring championship like Perry.

I think your putting too much emphasis on position alone. I think the individual player and team need are the determining factors. You can have top line wingers far more valuable than certain top line centers and vice versa. Same goes for dmen.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by JohnnySkittles

No offense but those are all awful. Maybe if it was Schenn + Couts, but the TB and Islander ones are quite bad. Bailey is a winger now, he sucks at Center and is a 3rd liner now. Killorn is also a 3rd liner and Carle at this point is a cap dump.

Think more like Palat, Johnson, Kucherov, strome, Nelson, etc

Brayden Schenn is a center (so more important/higher regarded than a winger) and also outscoring Hall this season. Reinhart is one of the best/highest thought of D prospects in the whole league, and while Killorn might be a #3 C in Tampa (behind Stamkos and Johnson, who are both fantastic ... and there's also Filppula), he'd surely be a top 6 center in Edmonton. EASILY.

Seriously, I think you overvalue Hall and the interest he'll get around the league quite a bit. He's bad/lazy defensively, he's now rumoured to be a locker room cancer and after all, he's a winger. Center and defensemen > wingers, it's really that simple. Taylor Hall is not going to return them a Seth Jones type of player, and he's not going to return a combo of 2 young good centermen (like you suggested "Schenn + Couturier"). I'd be shocked if the Oilers could trade him for more than a #2 center and a 2nd pairing D, but hey, we'll see.

Also, Palat-Johnson-Kucherov is one of the most balanced and defensively responsible lines in the whole NHL. They have unreal chemistry, spend a lot of time on the PK and also produce a lot of offense. It's almost like Tampa has two 1st lines now. And frankly, I'm sure Yzerman wouldn't trade a single one of those guys straight up for Hall, simply because they all play a 200 ft game and have awesome chemistry. Plus Palat and Johnson have just signed really cheap 3 year deals. They are going nowhere.