[Rumour] Dreger: Hall is the face of the Oiler's culture problem. I expect him to be shopped

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

Jeff Carter also netted pretty mediocre returns twice, and overall I say Carter is the better player (both he and Nash made the Olympic team at a more competitive position). I'm aware Carter's contract may have hindered his value somewhat, but that's where you would think Hall's value would be as well. Although I guess the Flyers did get Voracek for Carter, but at the time who knew what type of player he would end up being.

Voracek was drafted 7th overall. Nobody should be surprised he turned into a 1st-line forward. Add in a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick and that's very far from a mediocre return.

In the deal to the Kings, Carter was exchanged for Jack Johnson (a 3rd overall pick who was still only 23) and a 1st round pick.

Both those deals are about the equivalent of my suggestion of G Reinhart + Bailey.

People are forgetting that Carter was considered damaged goods at the time - a party boy who the coach wanted out of the room in Philadelphia and who sulked in Columbus. He had at least as many question marks about his attitude as Hall has today.

[kevman]

The problem with Hall's value is that it's currently sinking like a stone. Is he actually a locker room cancer? Maybe/maybe not. However now that the media and the NHL is waking up to the story I reckon GMs are lowering their potential offers.

As for trade proposals, step one would be to determine what team and coach can handle a potential locker room cancer with very little defensive game. Once you've answered that question you can begin to put together the package.

He's got a hell of a shot and can generate offensively so what team needs goals and can handle the baggage? Edmonton comes to mind as a team that is struggling to score and doesn't mind a complete disaster of a locker room...

[nik-]

I think a lot of the GM's around the league know what Taylor Hall is. He can generate some offensive, he has great speed, a good shot, isn't interested in defensive game in the least, and isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. He also tends to revert to a junior game when things aren't going well (ie: trying to beat 4 players) and gives up turnovers as a result. He's not "the man" ... he's just a piece who thinks he's the man. If I was a GM I probably wouldn't pay near what the Oilers think he's worth for Taylor Hall.

Nugent-Hopkins, on the other hand, would have incredible value. I'd pay a hell of a lot more for a guy like that than a guy like Hall. Dumb wingers don't win you championships.

[Poe969]

The pens really need a winger right now to play with Crosby. The oilers should trade Hall and Fasth for Malkin, Fleury and first.....but they'd have to do it now for it to make sense. Hall has SERIOUS value here guys. For cereal.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by kevman

The problem with Hall's value is that it's currently sinking like a stone. Is he actually a locker room cancer? Maybe/maybe not. However now that the media and the NHL is waking up to the story I reckon GMs are lowering their potential offers.

NHL GMs aren't as short-sighted and hysterical as fans. And they sure as heck don't base their valuations of players on the stories in the media.

And as already noted, there were all sorts of character questions about guys like Seguin and Carter before they were traded. Didn't stop them from being dealt. A lot of NHL players have big egos and don't like to listen to coaches. But talent is talent. And GMs and coaches are more inclined to think they can turn around attitude issues than conjure up elite talent out of thin air.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

NHL GMs aren't as short-sighted and hysterical as fans. And they sure as heck don't base their valuations of players on the stories in the media.

And as already noted, there were all sorts of character questions about guys like Seguin and Carter before they were traded. Didn't stop them from being dealt. A lot of NHL players have big egos and don't like to listen to coaches. But talent is talent. And GMs and coaches are more inclined to think they can turn around attitude issues than conjure up elite talent out of thin air.

Didn't stop them from being dealt, but they weren't dealt for franchise calibre defensive prospects either.

I agree with you though. Most teams know Hall's reputation, but at the same time, I doubt his reputation is completely out of whack with what the media is saying. Certainly, as indicated by Andrew Ference's "it isn't as bad as i heard" comment from shortly after he signed in Edmonton, it is well known throughout the league that the Oilers have problems in their locker room. It isn't hard to guess who runs that room.

Doesn't mean Hall doesn't still have huge value though. He could net a good return, just not what the Oilers and their fans think.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

He could net a good return, just not what the Oilers and their fans think.

Obviously he won't net the return Oilers fans think he will. But Hall's not the hot junk fans on this board are claiming either.

[DoubleF]

I keep reading Carter and hearing Jackie Chan's voice in my head saying it.

His WTF meme pic pops up too at some of these posts.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Obviously he won't net the return Oilers fans think he will. But Hall's not the hot junk fans on this board are claiming either.

Thats all we've been saying! The Oilers' valuation of their players is wildly out to lunch, but people around here havent been saying that hes so worthless they'll to waive him.

As usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but the Oilers are screwed because they want a premium for a player and that simply isnt going to happen.

You see, the thing about assets is that they can increase in value and they can decrease in value, and that value is often in the eyes of the beholder.

And, quite frankly, the Oilers are notorious for their development process, unfortunately that notoriety isnt beneficial, so its unlikely that the asset that they're peddling has appreciated in value. Its more likely that the value of the asset has declined.

And then theres whats known as 'perceived value.' Oiler management is well aware of the notorious 'Fall for Hall' and they want to be compensated for that, and that simply isnt going to happen.

The true downside to this is that if their absurd valuation isnt met, and it wont be, they wont trade him because if they do trade him and dont meet expectations their egos will be destroyed and quite likely one of them will get fired.

The fact of the matter is that the return for Taylor Hall will be disappointing. And thats something that that management group thinks they cant handle when really, disappointment is like Frank's Red Hot for Oilers fans. They put that #### on everything.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Locke

The fact of the matter is that the return for Taylor Hall will be disappointing. And thats something that that management group thinks they cant handle when really, disappointment is like Frank's Red Hot for Oilers fans. They put that #### on everything.

Permission to adopt this as my signature sir?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Permission to adopt this as my signature sir?

Granted!

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Locke

Thats all we've been saying! The Oilers' valuation of their players is wildly out to lunch, but people around here havent been saying that hes so worthless they'll to waive him.

As usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but the Oilers are screwed because they want a premium for a player and that simply isnt going to happen.

You see, the thing about assets is that they can increase in value and they can decrease in value, and that value is often in the eyes of the beholder.

And, quite frankly, the Oilers are notorious for their development process, unfortunately that notoriety isnt beneficial, so its unlikely that the asset that they're peddling has appreciated in value. Its more likely that the value of the asset has declined.

And then theres whats known as 'perceived value.' Oiler management is well aware of the notorious 'Fall for Hall' and they want to be compensated for that, and that simply isnt going to happen.

The true downside to this is that if their absurd valuation isnt met, and it wont be, they wont trade him because if they do trade him and dont meet expectations their egos will be destroyed and quite likely one of them will get fired.

The fact of the matter is that the return for Taylor Hall will be disappointing. And thats something that that management group thinks they cant handle when really, disappointment is like Frank's Red Hot for Oilers fans. They put that #### on everything.

Can you give some examples of packages from teams that would show what you think he is worth?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Can you give some examples of packages from teams that would show what you think he is worth?

Hell no.

I dont do trade proposals because I'm not privy to the information held by NHL General Managers.

[Flash Walken]

Hall's value is likely somewhere in between the returns for Neal (both times he was traded), Nash and Jeff Carter, with the Jeff Carter return being the top end and neal for goligoski the bottom end.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Locke

Hell no.

I dont do trade proposals because I'm not privy to the information held by NHL General Managers.

You don't need to be privy to the same information as GMS to know where you personally see his value. I'm not asking you to guess the exact value or trade, just curious to see where exactly you see his value since you have such a strong opinion of where it is not.

[GioforPM]

Who said Hall is "hot junk"? It was simply said he wouldn't generate a top end young talent like Jones, or a franchise player back. Joe Thornton wasn't hot junk, and his return was a couple middle level forwards and a decent defenceman. We've seen what Neal got (twice), what Carter netted, what Seguin was traded for and what Nash garnered. I don't think Hall is better than those guys overall.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think a lot of the GM's around the league know what Taylor Hall is. He can generate some offensive, he has great speed, a good shot, isn't interested in defensive game in the least, and isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. He also tends to revert to a junior game when things aren't going well (ie: trying to beat 4 players) and gives up turnovers as a result. He's not "the man" ... he's just a piece who thinks he's the man..

Great speed, good shot, can generate offense, 23 years old, and not counting this season, Hall has been scoring at a 30 goal pace the past 3 seasons and better than a point per game pace in his last 2. He is very much "the man" and his desire to be "the man" is what made him the consensus #1 overall pick in his draft year.

I think the perception that he is not interested in playing defense is unfair. Hall has been a winner and the losing might have got to him. I still remember Don Cherry, in reference to Nathan Horton, talking about how when you are stuck on a losing team you pick up bad habits even if you were a winner coming out of juniors. You need to learn how to win again. That's why many GMs believe that a winning environment is essential to player development.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Who said Hall is "hot junk"? It was simply said he wouldn't generate a top end young talent like Jones, or a franchise player back. Joe Thornton wasn't hot junk, and his return was a couple middle level forwards and a decent defenceman. We've seen what Neal got (twice), what Carter netted, what Seguin was traded for and what Nash garnered. I don't think Hall is better than those guys overall.

The Thornton trade was a bad one as he wasn't shopped around. Brad Stuart, at the time, was actually regarded as a 1st pairing defenseman and the centerpiece of that deal. I do agree that it is hard to trade franchise player for franchise player though, but usually when a 1st line forward is traded it is a top 4 defenseman coming back.

[taco.vidal]

Oilers could use someone like Darcy Regier making their trades rather than the Klown show management group they have now. Last I recall Regier was in Arizona as an assistant GM type role. Is that still correct today? Makes me want to see a trade between the Oilers and Arizona.

[GioforPM]

The reason people think he's not interested in defence is his lack of effort on backcheck.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The reason people think he's not interested in defence is his lack of effort on backcheck.

So what is his value in your eyes? You said he has "little trade value." What is a package or two that you see as fair value?