[PGT] Flames Lose 4th Straight, 3-1

[Rick M.]

I also think the pressure our our increased expectations might be weighing on the team, that plus the fact that they were expected to be better when injured players returned to the lineup.

[AcGold]

There is still aot of hockey left to be played. My concern for this team will be years down the road and we have Poirier, Bennett, Gaudreau, Smith, Monahan and Wotherspoon all reaching their potential and our defensive core will be a past his prime Brodie and Wotherspoon.

Still in a a playoff spot halfway through December, fine with me. We aren't winning the cup this year, 4 years from now though Gio will be way past his prime and we'll have an empty defensive cupboard.

[MrMastodonFarm]

The defensive cupboard is better than some think in my honest opinion.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

The defensive cupboard is better than some think in my honest opinion.

I disagree. Brodie won't be past his prime in 3-4 years, so there's that. Wotherspoon will be a decent 3-4 man, but I don't see any blue chip for the blue line. Kulak or Culkin may pan out. We're looking at least until 2017 for a raw dman like Hickey (who I'm very hopeful for).

Not sure there's anything coming there

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by AcGold

There is still aot of hockey left to be played. My concern for this team will be years down the road and we have Poirier, Bennett, Gaudreau, Smith, Monahan and Wotherspoon all reaching their potential and our defensive core will be a past his prime Brodie and Wotherspoon.

What on god's green earth are you talking about? Brodie is 24 and Wortherspoon is 21.

This post also assumes we're just going to stop drafting or acquiring defensmen moving forward.

Honestly, the worrisome panic some people here put themselves through is astounding.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

What on god's green earth are you talking about? Brodie is 24 and Wortherspoon is 21.

This post also assumes we're just going to stop drafting or acquiring defensmen moving forward.

Honestly, the worrisome panic some people here put themselves through is astounding.

I think he meant to type Gio and not Brodie?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Street Pharm, Yeah, that's the general feeling, which is why I gave the IMHO caveat at the end. I don't think our defensive prospects are anywhere near our forward depth but it's better than being bare, which some suggest. There's one guy I really like who impresses me each time I see him, I think he might surprise some.

We'll see how it all pans out. Probably see one or two guys on the blueline drafted in the first two rounds for us.

We're seeing this odd narrative on the board, suggesting all top players need to hit all their prime years at exactly the same time to be a winner. Don't know if that's true. If some forwards hit their prime before the blueline, it's okay. We will continue to be a drafting and developing team (I hope) even after we become a top team, always shifting young players into the line up.

[GoJetsGo]

We've been rebuilding for just under two years.

In that time we've addressed centre depth first and foremost with our top picks. There is still time and opportunity to draft, sign and or trade for defenders. To talk like that isn't part of the plan / agenda is just silly.

I can't fathom how people are suggesting 3/4 years down the road the only notable defenders on the team will be the ones we have now. Can't get much more short sighted than that.

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Not sure there's anything coming there

Really? How about this year's upcoming draft? Or the draft next year, or the year after?

How about the possibility of defensive prospects already in the system exceeding expectation? Giordano was un-drafted. Brodie, a mid round pick. A year or two after those two were 18 someone could have said "Not sure there's anything coming there" and it would be just as short sighted as this comment is now.

There's nothing but time and opportunity coming up in the next few years.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Yeah, that's the general feeling, which is why I gave the IMHO caveat at the end. I don't think our defensive prospects are anywhere near our forward depth but it's better than being bare, which some suggest. There's one guy I really like who impresses me each time I see him, I think he might surprise some.

We'll see how it all pans out. Probably see one or two guys on the blueline drafted in the first two rounds for us.

Who's that?

Sieloff - still to early to make any declarations, but I dint set anything special there. Hits hard but can't pass and isn't very fast

Wotherspoon - Solid if unspectacular. Not punishing, but physical enough. Makes a decent zone exit, but offense is limited

Kulak - Quite good from the prospect tournament and AHL games I've seen, yet playing in the ECHL. Either my evaluation is terrible (very likely), or they want him playing lots of minutes.

Culkin - Good offensive numbers but constantly scratched by Huska. Not clear on him. Had really good m numbers in the Q

Hickey - Heavily relied upon in the NCAA as an 18-year-old freshman. Leads the D in shots and points. 8 points in 15 games for a freshman is great. One has to ask how much of that is Jack Eichel related.

Kanzig - Do not like. Extremely slow first steps, can't pass. Bad combination. Flames brass were high on him last year so maybe I'm out to lunch. I'm not very high on him

John Ramage - Solid AHLer so far. Don't hear much about him which is great from a negative standpoint, but not really a dark house or blue chip here. 1 point in 50 AHL games last year and 4 in this year through 12 games. He's 23 so his offense isn't likely to suddenly take a Jooris.

Mattsson - Really liked this pick at the time. Very, very early for a puck like this, but nothing overly promising or negative
Rafikov - Developing in the nether regions of Russia. Captained the Russian Subway Super Series team. Played reasonably well. I only saw a couple of games and he didn't really stand out good or bad for me

Gilmour - Playing his junior year on a stingy defensive team. Better than his numbers (which are decent) would imply due to the defensive system the team employs. Skates well and good pass from the 3 or 4 games I've seen.


None of these sound exciting to me, though the cupboard is far from bare. My issue is unless we hit a developmental home run (Huska is a defensive prospect gold miner, so there's optimism), there's little top two pairing talent there

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

None of these sound exciting to me, though the cupboard is far from bare. My issue is unless we hit a developmental home run (Huska is a defensive prospect gold miner, so there's optimism), there's little top two pairing talent there

And the same thing could have been said about our Centre depth two years ago. Except the draft tends to change things...

Also, as mentioned already, your above break down completely misses the fact that defensemen take time to develop and absolutely can come out of nowhere as it relates to their respective draft position.

A few years ago your list could easily have listed:

Mark Giordano: In Russia, who knows if he'll ever play an NHL game from this point forward

TJ Brodie: Looks to be a good skater but has a lot of question marks before he graduates from the AHL


It's so futile to be looking at our current crop of defensive prospects and trying to declare it's a concern moving forward. We're so early in our rebuild with so much time left to address it that I can't see how worrying about it now serves any purpose other than adding to the already rampant wide spread worry around here.

[Street Pharmacist]

I should add as MMF edited his post and reading the following post, I'm only talking about today as a snap shot. Certainly things can change and I'm not panicking by any stretch. As someone pointed out, two/three years ago I would said anyone who thought we'd have forward depth today was crazy. There's plenty of time for unexpected positive development, prospects brought in on trades, undrafted signings, new draft picks.

I'm simply saying that of the D prospects we currently have, I'm not overly excited or expecting to catch lightning in a bottle.

If I had to throw one out there I'd say Hickey. Only saw half of one game, but he's really smooth out there and so young

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

And the same thing could have been said about our Centre depth two years ago. Except the draft tends to change things...

Also, as mentioned already, your above break down completely misses the fact that defensemen take time to develop and absolutely can come out of nowhere as it relates to their respective draft position.

No, it doesn't. I very explicitly said that. I didn't miss it. Your making it sound like I'm panicking. I'm not. Read the post again maybe?

None of these sound exciting to me, though the cupboard is far from bare. My issue is unless we hit a developmental home run (Huska is a defensive prospect gold miner, so there's optimism), there's little top two pairing talent there

A few years ago your list could easily have listed:

Mark Giordano: In Russia, who knows if he'll ever play an NHL game from this point forward

TJ Brodie: Looks to be a good skater but has a lot of question marks before he graduates from the AHL

Would you not call Giordano and Brodie developmental home runs? Or is that just normal?

It's so futile to be looking at our current crop of defensive prospects and trying to declare it's a concern moving forward. We're so early in our rebuild with so much time left to address it that I can't see how worrying about it now serves any purpose other than adding to the already rampant wide spread worry around here.

Who's worried? You? Can't we discuss prospects on a Flames forum? Is my post full of hyperbole? Or are you projecting something into my post? Where is this declaration about the future I'm making?

These types of posts are incredibly irritating and do nothing to further any discussion.

"Not a lot of exciting depth on defense prospects right now"
"STOP PANICKING!!!!"
"Ummm, Ok. Sure then"

[djsFlames]

We literally could go just go out and draft a top 2 potential d-man with our 1st in June and the whole defence situation would change. If the first round of this draft really is as high end as people are suggesting, well look how quickly Ekblad and Jones have come through for their teams. We could bring in a talented player for our blue line to slot in within a couple seasons.

Look how quickly we shored up our center depth through the draft. 2-3 drafts and we're now looking at an elite center core in a few years. I don't think Brad and co are going to ignore our need for D this time around.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

No, it doesn't. I very explicitly said that. I didn't miss it. Your making it sound like I'm panicking. I'm not. Read the post again maybe?





Would you not call Giordano and Brodie developmental home runs? Or is that just normal?




Who's worried? You? Can't we discuss prospects on a Flames forum? Is my post full of hyperbole? Or are you projecting something into my post? Where is this declaration about the future I'm making?

These types of posts are incredibly irritating and do nothing to further any discussion.

"Not a lot of exciting depth on defense prospects right now"
"STOP PANICKING!!!!"
"Ummm, Ok. Sure then"

I'd suggest you do some reading. My comments weren't directed at just you (other than what was said below where I quoted you).

On this very page we had someone suggesting that when the forwards hit their prime our only notable d-men would be Brodie and Wortherspoon, both somehow past their prime despite the fact one is just a few years older than said forwards.

Secondly, some of those qualifying statements you made came after what I said.

Yes, developmental home runs are not the norm, but they also can't be forecasted when looking at players just drafted. So any concern about our current group, less than two years into the rebuild when that position obviously hasn't been addressed yet, is very premature.

[Rollin22x]

I think it's possible that players look at our current defensive "stars" and consider where they were drafted (or not) and see that as an inspiration and drive to be better than there draft number. Depending on coaching and other influences, you just never know. Why even bother pegging their ceiling at this point? As for the game, I think we still need some size. We have some feisty players but they can't push too many guys off the puck or deliver the Regher hit to make them think about something other than playing that puck. The puck gets thrown around the outside enough that we start to chase it which ultimately frees someone up for a scoring chance. I watched the Edmonton game and listened to the commentators talk about the big hits by Hall and Eberle (which I still find hilarious) but we are not seeing that from very many of our players.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I'd suggest you do some reading. My comments weren't directed at just you (other than what was said below where I quoted you).

Fair enough, but you quoted me then talked about worry and panic

On this very page we had someone suggesting that when the forwards hit their prime our only notable d-men would be Brodie and Wortherspoon, both somehow past their prime despite the fact one is just a few years older than said forwards.

Secondly, some of those qualifying statements you made came after what I said.

No, that's the end of the very post you quoted

Yes, developmental home runs are not the norm, but they also can't be forecasted when looking at players just drafted. So any concern about our current group, less than two years into the rebuild when that position obviously hasn't been addressed yet, is very premature.

Fine, but posters (myself included) enjoy and will continue to enjoy discussing our current prospects whether you find value in it or not.

As I have posted earlier, the picture we have today will be vastly different next year. I'm genuinely curious who MMF likes as maybe there's a development arc I'm not seeing.

[GioforPM]

I do think that we lose the physical battle a lot. This may change. Colborne returning may help. GlenX sometimes plays physically, but still tends to lose the puck in those battles. Jones has been pretty good. Monahan will get better. Jooris, Ferland and Poirier will help.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Who's that?

Sieloff - still to early to make any declarations, but I dint set anything special there. Hits hard but can't pass and isn't very fast

Wotherspoon - Solid if unspectacular. Not punishing, but physical enough. Makes a decent zone exit, but offense is limited

Kulak - Quite good from the prospect tournament and AHL games I've seen, yet playing in the ECHL. Either my evaluation is terrible (very likely), or they want him playing lots of minutes.

Culkin - Good offensive numbers but constantly scratched by Huska. Not clear on him. Had really good m numbers in the Q

Hickey - Heavily relied upon in the NCAA as an 18-year-old freshman. Leads the D in shots and points. 8 points in 15 games for a freshman is great. One has to ask how much of that is Jack Eichel related.

Kanzig - Do not like. Extremely slow first steps, can't pass. Bad combination. Flames brass were high on him last year so maybe I'm out to lunch. I'm not very high on him

John Ramage - Solid AHLer so far. Don't hear much about him which is great from a negative standpoint, but not really a dark house or blue chip here. 1 point in 50 AHL games last year and 4 in this year through 12 games. He's 23 so his offense isn't likely to suddenly take a Jooris.

Mattsson - Really liked this pick at the time. Very, very early for a puck like this, but nothing overly promising or negative

Rafikov - Developing in the nether regions of Russia. Captained the Russian Subway Super Series team. Played reasonably well. I only saw a couple of games and he didn't really stand out good or bad for me

Gilmour - Playing his junior year on a stingy defensive team. Better than his numbers (which are decent) would imply due to the defensive system the team employs. Skates well and good pass from the 3 or 4 games I've seen.


None of these sound exciting to me, though the cupboard is far from bare. My issue is unless we hit a developmental home run (Huska is a defensive prospect gold miner, so there's optimism), there's little top two pairing talent there

I am very excited about the three players I bolded. Notable dark horses for me are Seiloff and Culkin. Something about Culkin tells me he's going to have a great NHL career. I had the same gut feeling about Granlund when the Flames drafted him too.

Wotherspoon is an NHL'er now. The question for me now is at this point is he a 4-5 D man or can he polish up to a solid 2-3.

Rafikov is putting up good points now (25 GP, 13A) and is a +(3) player on his VHL team. Made a solid statement in the Super series while Captaining them to a series win. Shaping up to be a coup of a 7th round pick if he signs here next year.

Brandon Hickey looks like Brodie 2.0 but is doing the NCAA route. Could walk onto the roster when he's done in College a little more polished. Like you said, he having an amazing freshman year. If he improves consistently over his tenure there, we could have a real gem. I like the way he plays.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Fine, but posters (myself included) enjoy and will continue to enjoy discussing our current prospects whether you find value in it or not.

As I have posted earlier, the picture we have today will be vastly different next year. I'm genuinely curious who MMF likes as maybe there's a development arc I'm not seeing.

My entire problem with what you said stemmed from:

Not sure there's anything coming there

There's nothing but time and opportunity over the next few years, and the developmental arch of defensive prospects is so different and unpredictable, that's really a futile thing to conclude.

People are free to discuss whatever they'd like, just as others are free to take issue with said discussions. It's all part and parcel of posting on a message board.

[OzSome]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

And the same thing could have been said about our Centre depth two years ago. Except the draft tends to change things...

Also, as mentioned already, your above break down completely misses the fact that defensemen take time to develop and absolutely can come out of nowhere as it relates to their respective draft position.

A few years ago your list could easily have listed:

Mark Giordano: In Russia, who knows if he'll ever play an NHL game from this point forward

TJ Brodie: Looks to be a good skater but has a lot of question marks before he graduates from the AHL


It's so futile to be looking at our current crop of defensive prospects and trying to declare it's a concern moving forward. We're so early in our rebuild with so much time left to address it that I can't see how worrying about it now serves any purpose other than adding to the already rampant wide spread worry around here.

I was actually going to mention about people's assessment on both Brodie and Giordano a few years back. I guess both of them shuts those people questioning if they will ever make it in the NHL ever. Defensemen are tough to gauge sometimes. Some are late bloomers and some are playing awesome in junior and AHL but couldn't hack it in the NHL. Some are not good in the AHL but once they started playing with the big boys, they excel. I agree we are so early in the rebuild but I guess some people are getting impatient already.