[News] Update: NHL green lights season-ticket drive for Las Vegas

[Igster]

Originally Posted by jaydorn

I just straight up don't get the rational behind Vegas. The NHL as a whole can't compete against against NBA/MLB/NFL in many markets, and they think they can trump a dozen Cirque du Soleil shows, Garth Brooks, Celine Dion, Brittany Spears for entertainment dollars?

Even if we say an MGM is throwing money at the team hand over foot for every seat, the fact is empty seats don't buy beer/food/merchandise.

No other sports competition? I think the NHL being there could be a really good draw. Not to mention all the Canadians and Americans who visit there that are hockey fans.

[devo22]

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendan...h.php?tmi=6525

that's solid numbers for an ECHL team in a city with tons of entertainment like Las Vegas. An NHL team would do just fine there imo

[Joborule]

I just don't believe that Las Vegas would have enough local season ticket holders investment that would last long term. Once the honeymoon phase is over, is the team going to still get enough local fans and corporate investment? It just seems fairly difficult since the NHL isn't up to the tier of the MLB/NBA in the states to have good confidence in giving it a shot.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by devo22

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendan...h.php?tmi=6525

that's solid numbers for an ECHL team in a city with tons of entertainment like Las Vegas. An NHL team would do just fine there imo

i hope i'm not already pointing out the obvious, but an ECHL ticket is probably a lot cheaper then the "other" entertainment the city has to offer

though I bet if a NHL Las Vegas team prices competitively with the ECHL, then sure, I can see it.

[troutman]

LV team would be bizarro world - empty arena on weeknights, 15,000 cheering for the visiting team on weekends.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Joborule

I just don't believe that Las Vegas would have enough local season ticket holders investment that would last long term. Once the honeymoon phase is over, is the team going to still get enough local fans and corporate investment? It just seems fairly difficult since the NHL isn't up to the tier of the MLB/NBA in the states to have good confidence in giving it a shot.

While I'm also totally not sold on Vegas being able to work (but admittedly excited about it for selfish reasons), you specifically called out "local fans" as a reason that it won't work.

While I get that fan support is key in this league, and for most markets, a lack of "local fans" would absolutely equal lack of "fan support", but in reality, does it actually matter if the fan support is local or not?

I don't think it does, and it's obviously the basis on how this experiment will work or fail. But I think there is a real chance this could work on the backs of corporate support from the casino's, purchasing tickets and then selling them or even giving them away as perks for their clients. I get American's don't usually support hockey in masses, but people go to Vegas they are literally looking for things to do "while they party". Casino's have success giving away tickets to weirder crap (in my opinion) to their customers than what hockey would be, and I actually think hockey's lack of popularity could work to it's advantage in this scenario, where casino clients who likely don't come from a hockey market would view being comped tickets to a professional "ice hockey match" as a novelty they'd love to do for 2.5 hrs one night while they get drunk and before they hit the tables and clubs.

Top that off with the fans from actual NHL markets who will likely make a point of heading into town when their home team rolls in, I think the business model has a CHANCE.

Like I said, maybe I'm fooling myself because this idea appeals to me, but I actually do think this business model might work, and I think I can see the appeal to the NHL in trying it out. Not convinced at all it's a slam dunk, but I don't think the consistent reference to "local fan support" is actually that big a factor here considering what I think the business model will be.

Now, how from a players perspective will be it be playing for a team that doesn't have much of a local following, another story, but that in it's self shouldn't impact the economics.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by devo22

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendan...h.php?tmi=6525

that's solid numbers for an ECHL team in a city with tons of entertainment like Las Vegas. An NHL team would do just fine there imo

The Phoenix Roadrunners had better attendance than that before the NHL moved into their market. Look how that worked out.

[_Q_]

I think Vegas will only rival Edmonton in terms of teams included in No Trade Clauses.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think Vegas will only rival Edmonton in terms of teams included in No Trade Clauses.

??

I think tons of players would want to play in Vegas.

The real key is longevity. I spend 3 days is Vegas and its fantastic. I once spent 6 days in Vegas and I was praying for my own merciful death.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by jaydorn

I just straight up don't get the rational behind Vegas. The NHL as a whole can't compete against against NBA/MLB/NFL in many markets, and they think they can trump a dozen Cirque du Soleil shows, Garth Brooks, Celine Dion, Brittany Spears for entertainment dollars?

Even if we say an MGM is throwing money at the team hand over foot for every seat, the fact is empty seats don't buy beer/food/merchandise.

Almost two million Canadians per year visit Vegas, with Torontonians, Calgarians and Edmontonians leading the way, accounting for almost 40% of all international visitors. If Las Vegas joins the league, there is a good chance they'll be put into the Pacific Division, where three Canadian teams also reside. Two of Canada's top Las Vegas draws (Calgary and Edmonton) would get to play four or five games against Vegas in this format, not including perennial division contenders (ugh, hate to say it) Vancouver Canucks. So 6-8 games of the 40 home games are reserved for strong Canadian markets with tourist dollars to spend. I would also hazard a bet that regional rivalries with Phoenix, Los Angeles and Anaheim are not out of the question if things take off - and many, many people make the drives to Vegas from those cities.

This is in addition to the Las Vegas Wranglers averaging about 4500 per game in the 2013-2014 season. I can only image that number doubles with an NHL franchise.

I think they'll be fine IMO.

[getbak]

Double 4500 is only 9000. It would be an absolute disaster if that's all they could attract.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Locke

??

I think tons of players would want to play in Vegas.

The real key is longevity. I spend 3 days is Vegas and its fantastic. I once spent 6 days in Vegas and I was praying for my own merciful death.

Well I'm sure some players would be OK with playing in Vegas, but these players are passionate people for the most part. What type of elite talent would willingly play what amounts to be a road game the entire season?

And that seems to be the business plan in Vegas "get people from out of town to come and watch their favorite team play against the locals".

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by getbak

Double 4500 is only 9000. It would be an absolute disaster if that's all they could attract.

Who knows? Las Vegas' attendance record has been fairly steady over the last 10 years. But a dedicated fan base is likely to grow with a major pro sports team.

I obviously can't say for certain by how much, but if the ownership banks on a mix of a hometown fan base mixed with a minority percentage base of tourist fans, especially projected at say, a 3-5 year growth plan, I can't see why it would fail.

The problem is Vegas' hasn't really had a major pro sports team history so it's hard to gauge just how successful one would be with historical data, I suppose.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Who knows? Las Vegas' attendance record has been fairly steady over the last 10 years.

Again, the Phoenix Roadrunners’ attendance record was fairly steady for the six years (1991–97) for which hockeydb.com has data. And it was better than Las Vegas has now: an average of about 6,000 per game. Sure enough, the Coyotes managed to attract double those numbers after they came to town – but that was not enough fans, nor at high enough ticket prices, to save the team from a financial bloodbath.

I don’t get why hockey in Phoenix is doomed because it can’t work in the desert, but hockey in Las Vegas is a sure-fire success.

[Envitro]

All they need is Wayne Newton to sing the opening anthems and we're good to go LOL

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by jaydorn

I just straight up don't get the rational behind Vegas. The NHL as a whole can't compete against against NBA/MLB/NFL in many markets, and they think they can trump a dozen Cirque du Soleil shows, Garth Brooks, Celine Dion, Brittany Spears for entertainment dollars?

Ahh, the lament of the hockey fan's oh-so-typical inferiority complex. It doesn't matter if other leagues or events have more popularity overall. It never has and it never will. All that matters is whether the NHL makes money or not. Whether its revenues grow or not. Full stop.

Even if we say an MGM is throwing money at the team hand over foot for every seat, the fact is empty seats don't buy beer/food/merchandise.

Putting aside the fact that you obviously can't tell the future, if that were to happen, that would be MGM's problem.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Putting aside the fact that you obviously can't tell the future, if that were to happen, that would be MGM's problem.

Only if MGM owns the team.

If the seats are empty, then the poor concession sales become the problem of whoever owns the team.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Only if MGM owns the team.

If the seats are empty, then the poor concession sales become the problem of whoever owns the team.

Did I really need to spell out for you the fact that whoever owns the team eats the risk?

Also, read the post I was responding to. It was talking explicitly about MGM throwing money.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Did I really need to spell out for you the fact that whoever owns the team eats the risk?

Do I really need to spell out for you the fact that MGM is a red herring in this discussion?

Also, read the post I was responding to. It was talking explicitly about MGM throwing money.

I read it. (I do know how to read, you know. You get no points for assuming that I am either illiterate or imbecilic, so I suggest you dial it the hell down.) The post was explicitly talking about the concession sales:

Even if we say an MGM is throwing money at the team hand over foot for every seat, the fact is empty seats don't buy beer/food/merchandise.

In other words, MGM or some other company may choose to subsidize the team (in effect) by buying empty seats, but those empty seats will not be as valuable to the owner as occupied seats would be.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Do I really need to spell out for you the fact that MGM is a red herring in this discussion?



I read it. (I do know how to read, you know. You get no points for assuming that I am either illiterate or imbecilic, so I suggest you dial it the hell down.) The post was explicitly talking about the concession sales:



In other words, MGM or some other company may choose to subsidize the team (in effect) by buying empty seats, but those empty seats will not be as valuable to the owner as occupied seats would be.

Not necessarily in this example. If MGM or one of the other casino conglomarates owned the club the business model is completely changed. The most valuable thing one of MGM's Hockey Ticket holders can do that night is actually skip the game, and head onto the casino floor, while also feeling really good that the MGM gave them free tickets to a hockey game, even if they didn't end up using it.

There is no where a casino would rather have a patron than on the casino floor. The same applies when they give out tickets to any other show. The whole point is to make the customer feel valued, whether they use the ticket or not. Now obviously, there is some balance of if no one uses the tickets, then how much client satisfaction or extra business is being driven by comping the tickets, and therefore how much goodwill is being generated for MGM by the give away that translates into more money spent in their casino.

But don't fool yourself, this is not the typical fill the building with paid tickets and have the fans spend as much money as possible at the concessions business model that it is in the rest of the NHL, this is definitely a: can we use "NHL hockey" to attract, keep or make our casino customers happy model so that they spend as much money at our casino business model.